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A fun project for a weekend


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#1 havlicek

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 03:10 PM

Getting creative doesn't have to involve exotic motors, or lust-worthy high-demand vintage ones.  I give you "Exhibit A":

A (now-vintage) plain-jane Mura Challenger II.  For it's day, it was pretty much an entry level motor, at an entry level price.  Like all the Muras (*or most anyway), you still got the same basic can, a strong set of ceramic magnets and in this case the end bell from the earlier "Green Can.  She's pretty rough alright, but if it was minty-fresh, where would the creativity come-in?  Oh and, before really digging-in, the can will need some straightening-out on a mandrel...especially the bearing strap which is pretty majorly bent.

IMG_3470.JPG

Taking it apart, there's the usual Mura arm, on the usual Mura lams...sloppy looking, but they ran just fine.

IMG_3471.JPG

Wellp...the longest road starts with but a single step, or something like that.

IMG_3472.JPG

So after some straightening and tapping with a small plastic-tipped mallet, the can got "The Treatment" TM, and lo and behold, under all that old crud there was a prom queen in hiding!

IMG_3473.JPG

 


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John Havlicek




#2 wbugenis

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 03:48 PM

The photo of that armature with the crimped tabs reminds me of some slot car history I have been thinking of posting but have not until now.

 

This is a picture of the RJR commutator welding rig Robert Root had specially made to weld the type of commutator in John's picture.: 

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William Bugenis

#3 Bill from NH

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 03:58 PM

Bill, does that RJR welding rig still work? Did "Jerry Viper' use it when he was making arms?


Bill Fernald
 
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#4 wbugenis

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 03:59 PM

To continue from the above post,   the machine was designed to simultaneously crimp the commutator tabs

 

using a pair of pneumatically driven pistons and resistance weld (spot weld) the tab right through the insulated wire and without  

 

any silver in the weld (or braze).    When this machine was built, Robert Root (RJR) was using a commutator shell that was stamped

 

on a progressive die from a flat strip of copper.   Whenever I see a commutator with those crimped tabs I have to wonder whether 

 

 the commutator shell (before it is filled with phenolic resin)  was stamped or machined.


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#5 Geary Carrier

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 04:01 PM

Pneumatics, solenoids, linear bearings, high current, PLC, what else could you ask for?


Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#6 wbugenis

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 04:15 PM

So this is the machine i use when I weld commutators and we used when i worked with Viper.

 

At Viper we did not have access to the machined Faas commutator shell - this would come later - but used 

 

the stamped commutator shells from  the RJR tooling.  The first modification we made to  RJR production was the addition

 

of a silver brazing rod (Silfoss I believe but the spelling might be wrong)  to the weld.

 

After I acquired Gunther Fass's  Traub TB42 and tooling to  machine  the  shells, I modified the welder to 

 

eliminate the crimping of the shell and use only the programmable welder to control the current and number of pulses  for the machined

 

shell .  The machined shell offers superior mechanical attachment of the copper to the phenolic over the stamped shell

 

One other modification I made was to turn the welding assembly horizontal from it's original vertical orientation  to accommodate the machined commutator shell. 


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William Bugenis

#7 wbugenis

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 04:16 PM

Pneumatics, solenoids, linear bearings, high current, PLC, what else could you ask for?

 

 

$20,000?

 

The 1990"s were an economic high point for RJR

 

Sorry, John for hijacking your post but  the picture of that crimped commutator tab got me thinking.

 

That's not how we do it anymore.

 

And BTW , what John does with his battery charger as a commutator welder is getting much better results than RJR ever did with that expensive equipment.

 

And now back to your previously scheduled programming. 


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#8 swodem

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 04:25 PM

Bill

You don’t have to manually ‘return’ when you are typing and reach the end of the screen

It messes up the format of your paragraphs

93241409e3e413aacfb43550672d0803.jpg

Everyone’s computers will auto fit for you

Steve


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#9 havlicek

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 04:59 PM

Hi Bill,

 

 

 

Sorry, John for hijacking your post but  the picture of that crimped commutator tab got me thinking.

 

NO WORRIES BILL...please "hijack" to your heart's content.  The above posts you added have actual real information, that I would think anyone interested in this stuff would appreciate.  I know I do!

 

 

 

Bill

You don’t have to manually ‘return’ when you are typing and reach the end of the screen

It messes up the format of your paragraphs

 

 

Seriously?  Have you spent any time looking at the grammar/syntax in this place?  Here a guy who has done this stuff is doing exactly what I would hope for, and you think this is "important"?  Nevermind.  

 


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#10 havlicek

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 05:02 PM

I cleaned-up the end bell best as I could and then gave it a dip in some red "Rit" dye.  

IMG_3474.JPG


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#11 proptop

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 07:56 PM

Looks good John...just wondering if you add any white vinegar, or anything else to the dye? The Mura endbells take the dye o.k. but just curious, because I've had some iffy results with other types or brands of dyes and endbells.


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#12 havlicek

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:08 PM

Looks good John...just wondering if you add any white vinegar, or anything else to the dye? The Mura endbells take the dye o.k. but just curious, because I've had some iffy results with other types or brands of dyes and endbells.

 

Hi Tom,

     No I don't use any vinegar, or salt.  I just use tap water, and I've had some pretty widely-varying results with some end bells, even from the same manufacturer.  I *think* that some of it may be because of how the end bells have been stored...for decades.  Certain conditions may (?) harden the materials and make them more brittle, and less likely to take the stain well.  In any case, the boiling water almost seems to do slightly good things to the plastic.

     Back on this motor, I'm going to leave the tabbed hardware here so the motor could more easily go inline...and because that's what was on there.  It won't be getting an arm anything like what was in there though.  :)


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#13 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:05 PM

John, maybe it's my old eyes but the red dye comes out looking purple to me:-) maybe it's the old pooch syndrome, you know like when you feel like an old dog.

 

Jess



#14 havlicek

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 05:57 AM

John, maybe it's my old eyes but the red dye comes out looking purple to me:-) maybe it's the old pooch syndrome, you know like when you feel like an old dog.

 

Jess

 

Hi Jess,

     The final color depends a LOT on the color of the end bell, and this one (*besides being pretty dirty) started out as an off-white.  A lot also depends on how much dye you use, and here I used a lot for the amount of boiling water there was, because of the issue Tom mentioned regarding unpredictable results with some end bells.  Since I wanted to be sure the end bell's decades of grime got covered, I REALLY dyed it!


John Havlicek

#15 slotcarone

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:39 AM

One thing I noticed is there is almost no wear on the comm on that original Mura arm even though the motor looked pretty cruddy. Probably did not get much track time.


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#16 havlicek

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 09:58 AM

One thing I noticed is there is almost no wear on the comm on that original Mura arm even though the motor looked pretty cruddy. Probably did not get much track time.

 

 

Good eyes Mike :)  Yep, the brush track makes it look worn, but it wouldn't take more than a light cut to clean it right up.  I sometimes will go through the effort to pry open the tabs on these things and press out the com for reuse...but only when I'm feeling particularly energetic.  ;)


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#17 Horsepower

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 12:10 PM

Hi Bill,

 

 

NO WORRIES BILL...please "hijack" to your heart's content.  The above posts you added have actual real information, that I would think anyone interested in this stuff would appreciate.  I know I do!

 

 

 

Seriously?  Have you spent any time looking at the grammar/syntax in this place?  Here a guy who has done this stuff is doing exactly what I would hope for, and you think this is "important"?  Nevermind.  

 

I found it helpful.


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#18 Horsepower

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 12:12 PM

Bill

You don’t have to manually ‘return’ when you are typing and reach the end of the screen

It messes up the format of your paragraphs

93241409e3e413aacfb43550672d0803.jpg

Everyone’s computers will auto fit for you

Steve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks  Steve!


"You do not know these men. You may have looked at them, but you did not see them. They are the wind that blows newspapers down a gutter on a windy night -- and sweeps the gutter clean."


#19 havlicek

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 12:39 PM

I found it helpful.

 

 

I didn't...at all, and in a thread I started, I *think* my take is ...or should be a little more relevant.   Bill's posts were easily legible, well-written and informative.  To make a comment about the formatting of his posts, when he's offering good information of a kind not seen that frequently...if at all...here, seemes petty, not useful and completely besides the point.  My answer about looking at the grammar of other people's posts here wasn't meant to be hurtful, but simply to point out that, if we're heading into English class here, there's a lot more to be concerned about.  So, I could ask you to point out what exactly you couldn't easily understand in Bill's posts that you could have more easily if his formatting were different...but I won't, and don't expect an answer.  Moreover, I am not a moderator here, but if I were...I'd have just deleted his post.  *You may have "found it helpful", but that's not the criteria for seeing something as petty and useless.


John Havlicek

#20 swodem

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 01:09 PM

John

I was just trying to help Bill

maybe he was wondering why his posts came out like that?

Steve


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#21 havlicek

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 02:21 PM

John

I was just trying to help Bill

maybe he was wondering why his posts came out like that?

Steve


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Steve,

     Actually, I can tell you he wasn't, but he was wondering what you were talking about.  More importantly, Bill's info is of a kind you almost never see here (when was the last time ProSlot or Koford's methods *with pictures* was shown here?), so if you wanted to offer help about something you thought might be an issue for a poster, the way to do that is by PMs, and not to take the thread OT.

***What I worry about is that the very few people who CAN and DO post this kind of information may sometime just say...heck with it, and never post at all.  I can think of another recent thread where nonsense derailed the subject and got the thread locked.  That should not happen.


John Havlicek





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