16 replies to this topic

[Tom Katsanis]

On another forum I'm a member of where we like to play with vintage open frame motors a discussion came up on how to go about winding a 5 pole armature.

I had made a few attempts at doing this myself but it was'nt til the 3rd arm I stripped that I was able to actually unwind a pole & see how it was done.

On the other forum I attempted to describe how I thought it should be done but not knowing the proper names of some parts it didn't really come out right so I said I would have a go at drawing it.

So here is what I drew it is just a winding diagram for one pole that has 2 turns to show which way you wind the arm on a 5 pole setup I hope this will help anyone wbo may want to wind a 5 pole armature in the future.

So the top two sqaures are Comm segments & the bottom two are the armature laminations.

Attached Images

• 

[havlicek]

Good one!...but that's just one way to wind 'em. 

[brucefl]

Hows that even possible it looks like you are winding two poles as if they are one,first off if theres 5 poles and its feasible to do this ,you wouldnt be able to wind symetrically since you dont have 6poles,you would wind 2 poles then 2 poles then 1 pole,where did you come up with this configuration for a 5 pole arm.perhaps there are infinite numbers of winding arms,especially since there are industrial arms with many many poles,theoretically based on what you did you could do the same with a 3pole arm im conjecturing?

 

do you know the theory behind this technique?

 

possibly there are variances of techniques that are superior to whatnwe are using in slotcars for various features we would seek such as torgue,rpm,or combinations of these,like you see from one electric drill to another,their variances.

[havlicek]

The bottom line(s) is that you are winding five pole pairs and terminating those pole pairs at five com segments.  You CAN also wind five poles and terminate those at five com segments just as you would a three pole arm, but I have never seen one done that way from the factory.   You can also skip poles and wind up with a coil spanning three poles.  ***These arms and motors (*as well as 7, 9 and more pole arms/motors) are intended for applications where smooth torque is favored over RPMs, making them not well-suited for slots.  If you strip a 5 pole motor, you would find a surprisingly large amount of magnet wire on there because of how effectively large each "pole" (or rather pole-pair) is.  ***You CAN still wind a five-pole and use thicker wire to increase the RPMs, which is like way "overwinding" a three pole...something like (*but not exactly) a 35 turns of #25 armature.  The folks who do open frame or "padlock" type drag motors can fill you in better than I could.  The other thing going on with these motors is that the gaps between segments are very very small which makes for almost zero "cog".  The "winding leg" on these armatures is also typically half-round (*although not always) which works for winding in pole pairs, because the wire needs to be placed...er..."sideways" to wrap around adjacent poles.

The last thing, and the thing that can really screw with your head is that com orientation is not as straightforward as in a three pole for two reasons:

1)  The com "timing", how the com relates to the poles being energized is based on the size of the coil which is more than one pole.
2)  The magnets and brushes, which are usually oriented in the same plane in a three pole motor, are oriented 90 degrees off from each other.

So, *just* winding these isn't the difficult part conceptually...it's knowing how to commutate them.  That's why I don't do them any more.

[Phil Smith]

2)  The magnets and brushes, which are usually oriented in the same plane in a three pole motor, are oriented 90 degrees off from each other.

 

 

John, I thought that too, but reading your post it dawned on me that padlock motor magnet laminations are also oriented differently. On padlock motors, brushes and mag lams are oriented vertically, making them in the same plane. Everything is just shifted 90 degrees compared to a conventional slot car motor.

[Phil Smith]

After further thought, it dawned on me that most/all vintage inline 5 pole motors have horizontally oriented magnet plates and vertically oriented brushes, so they are indeed 90 degrees out of line with each other.

 

[Uncle Fred]

The 196A an B have horizontal brushes.

 

While I remember, John, could you rewind my Prius motor?

[Dave Crevie]

 

Brush orientation and timing differ between laminated padlock-type motors and open frame motors with stamped sideplates. On padlock

motors the brushes are in the same plane as the magnetic field. On open frame motors the brushes are sometimes at 90 degrees to the

magnetic field. When it come to the open frame motors, there are some differences, and it all depends on how the brush assemblies

are mounted. 

 

 

[havlicek]

I should add that, even though Bruce never chimed-in again to say "oh, now I see" or "thanks for the info", there was one question he asked that wasn't answered:

 

 

 

Hows that even possible it looks like you are winding two poles as if they are one,first off if theres 5 poles and its feasible to do this

 

It doesn't matter how many poles are wound together for each coil...as long as there are a total of five coils with a 5 segment commutator.

I suppose you could wind around four poles for each coil, the coils would be larger and have a much greater total length of wire, and the winding sequence would go something like:

*coil one: poles one and four
*coil two: poles two and five
*coil three: poles three and one
*coil four: poles four and two
*coil five: poles five and three

Each coil would then be terminated at five pairs of com segments in the same way they would be if each coil were only wound around one or two poles.

[russm2002]

If you think about it, all retro-hawk type motors have a 90 degree brush orientation...

[Eddie Fleming]

If you think about it, all retro-hawk type motors have a 90 degree brush orientation...

More or less, but close enough. 

[Dave Crevie]

The idea behind winding poles in pairs was to make a smoother running motor. As far as I can determine, the practice really started

with model railroading back before WWII when the industry began to switch to DC motors from wound-field AC motors.

[Phil Smith]

There's so much more to DC motors than small 3 pole slot car motors. Frankly, when it gets past hobby motors it gets confusing to me. Ever look at a car starter motor? 4 brushes, six magnet fields, single turn armatures. That's from another planet.

 

 

 

[Tom Katsanis]

Thank you guys for the added info I'm sure it will come in handy.

[brucefl]

wow when will we be producing gp7arms like that with a single wrap of coat hanger gauge?

 

i wonder what super wire coating coating that wire has?

[Dave Crevie]

Bruce, you could be the first. Give it a shot.

[Alchemist]

Hi Phil,

 

What chassis will you put this motor in?  LOL

 

Thanks for sharing that awesome photo!

 

I can only imagine what it would be like to rewind that motor! ! ! !

 

Ernie