28 replies to this topic

[triggerman]

Just visited eBay and found Mid-America Raceway not only is selling counterfeits of my product but they have the nerve to call them the name I've been using since 2003!

 

[Bill from NH]

There's a second truer on eBay by Mid-America, without a diamond drum, that's cheaper than the one above, but has the same questionable parts.

[Phil Beukema]

Patents?

[triggerman]

Here's the description which is an exact copy that the late Dave Leibenthal and I authored when he listed the Knob Job on his site!

 

 

 

[triggerman]

Patents?

Patents and trademarks aren't a preventative measure. They give the holder rights to hire lawyers and sue the infringers. Hardly any money in slot cars as there is without having to pay legal fees.

 

I was hoping a public shaming would make Mr. Schmitt change his mind. I'm not holding my breath though.

[gotboostedvr6]

Have eBay pull the add.

[Ecurie Martini]

Patents and trademarks arent a preventative measure. They give the holder rights to hire lawyers and sue the infringers. Hardly any money in slot cars as there is without having to pay legal fees. I was hoping a public shaming would make Mr Schmitt change his mind. Im not holding my breath though.

 

Not only is there significant cost in filing and obtaining a patent, with a lot of restrictions on when and to whom the invention was first described (and this differs from country to country) but even after a patent is allowed and published, redress for infringement is neither simple nor cheap. In most cases, the best one can hope for is an injunction against further sales by the infringing party and actual damages (not trivial to prove). It would go something like this: Look at sales/year and projected market growth and compare that with sales/year since the introduction of the infringing article. Claim that the difference is due to the infringement and represents the damages. Now, look at that number vis-a-vis a not unusual $200/hour* attorney's fee - probably not worth it.

 

I think your resort to the court of public opinion is the wise choice.

 

EM

 

*bargain basement!

[Mark Wampler]

Patents are good for cease and desist orders providing you have a war chest. That's about it.

[Pablo]

I feel your pain and if I was a bigger fish in the hobby I'd help any way I could.

Everybody knows the guy is a snake. I only buy specific things from him when I'm desperate and have nowhere else to get them.

[mgerbetz]

I was fooled by this just less than a month ago.

I agree with what you say. Shame on them. I was disappointed.

MG

[Pablo]

There is only one true Knob Job, by Triggerman, Dale Ryan. Anything else is a knock-off fake.

[Bill from NH]

My Knob Job came from Dave Liebenthal. 

[Ecurie Martini]

Patents are good for cease and desist orders providing you have a war chest. That's about it.

 

A typical response to a cease and desist order - claim that the patent is invalid because the claimed invention is "obvious to anyone practiced in the art."*

 

EM

 

*In my experience, this can be a real crapshoot.  

[Phil Smith]

Count me as another very dissatisfied Roger customer. Hopefully this thread will warn others to not do business with him.

[triggerman]

My Knob Job came from Dave Liebenthal. 

Congratulation! Yours is one that I manufactured!

[Racer36]

I have two Hudys with genuine Knob Jobs and I wouldn’t have it any other way!

[Dave Crevie]

Over the past couple of years I have had my own disappointing interactions with the federal government copyright and patent offices. Not only are the agents incompetent, I was able to find out there are loopholes making litigation very difficult. Any patent can be rendered useless by the "improved version" clause. All you have to do is change one little detail, and the patent is moot. 

 

I experienced this with an item that the company I worked for produced that was sold anodized. A Chinese competitor sold it at a fraction of what we sold it for, but painted. The simple change of finish protected the counterfeit from being banned from sale in this country.

 

This year I received a copyright for a book I published, and invested in the booklet available from the Library of Congress about that. The legalese is so daunting that I wonder if it was really worth the trouble. By the way, I ended up paying for it twice, along with the $30 refiling fee, because their accounting office is a bunch of idiots. Plus it took eight months to get the final paperwork. 

[Shooter7mustang]

I recently purchased a "Knob Job" from Mid-America. I assumed that it was a Hudy with a Knob Job kit installed. I haven't had any problems with it so far.

 

That being said sometimes "capitalism is its own worst enemy" and creates situations like this one. I was raised to believe that a man is only as good as his word and although I try to buy as much as I can from my local track or a track I traveled to race at I have done a bit of business with Mid-America RaceWay and have experienced nothing but excellent customer service. Shipping is fast and every item I have bought is exactly as described and they always reduce the shipping to a fair price when purchasing multiple items.

 

As a case in point I purchased six Falcon motors in 2017 and 14 months later I returned those motors in exchange for new FK4002s with no hassle at all. In my experience until their word is "not good" I have no complaints and believe you shouldn't trash someone behind their back on a public forum before "taking it up" with the individual responsible.

 

There are three sides to every story: we said, they said, and the truth. 

[Bill from NH]

The Chinese are good at making counterfeit products too, but you don't have to purchase them. I see this topic is now posted on OWH too, for their audience to see.

[triggerman]

Kevin,

So you’re saying that because you got good service from Mid-America you are OK with them blatantly copying my product and name? This creates confusion and a lack of confidence in my hard-earned reputation as an honest merchant to the slot car community!

There are other tire truers that have been manufactured and sold with graduated dials in the sixteen years since I introduced my products. Only one other time was an attempt made to use the Knob Job name on a graduated dial that wasn’t even close to being similar to mine. This merchant was quickly notified and the advertisement changed. This person who you are defending undoubtedly knew what he was doing and chose to do so anyway!

[Shooter7mustang]

No, I said exactly what you read... you can take it anyway you want it but do me a favor and don't put words in my mouth. I see that you are well respected and have no doubt you are an honest merchant. Have you confronted the individual directly? I am not defending anyone in particular. I never mentioned names of individuals, only the business and how I have been treated by said business. I judge on what I see and experience, not on what I hear.

Like I said you should take it up with the individual you feel is responsible. My mistake was assuming that the "knob Job" was a kit. I figured Mid-America bought the kits and installed them. Apparently I was wrong. And for the record, I would not condon "ripping off" another persons hard earned work and achievements, but right now all I have been presented with is hearsay. Every person deserves the right to defend themselves doesn't mean they are right but sometimes we don't have the whole story or all the facts. If your product and name has been ripped off then I agree, shame on them.

[Phil Beukema]

That's not correct use of "hearsay." Overruled.

[triggerman]

Hearsay?

Your communicating with the party that was wronged! That’s not hearsay that’s fact! Just look at the above posted eBay listings!
Hearsay?

There is no mistaking what this person did and that you were, by your own admission, fooled by his advertising. The fact that you 'Haven’t any problems so far' doesn’t change the fact that you were tricked into purchasing a counterfeit product. And what if you did have problems with the counterfeit Knob Job system? Who’s reputation would be harmed? Mine!

Hearsay?

[Phil Smith]

In my experience until their word is "not good" I have no complaints and believe you shouldn't trash someone behind their back on a public forum before "taking it up" with the individual responsible.

 

Why do you assume that Roger's critics *didn't* take it up with him first?

 

You should follow your own advise.

[Shooter7mustang]

See, you are still avoiding the real issue, you are talking smack about som one you clearly have not confronted. If you are scared, say so. And you have confused heresy with hea-say for those. In other words it's gossip, you know, he said, she said.