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Stronger magnets


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#1 hogwild

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 01:18 PM

Should you change gear ratio if you change magnet strength. 13/42 now just general terms
Tim Ballmer




#2 Alan Dodson

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 02:46 PM

In general terms, stronger magnets will give you more torque and less RPM, so you would want to go to a higher gear ratio such as 14/42.


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#3 havlicek

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 05:31 AM

What Alan said.  Among the bazillion variables in the whole motor equation, magnets are certainly important.  It's not *just* the metered strength of the magnets too.  The shape of the tips, the length of the magnets relative to the length of the stack...and therefore also the weight of the magnets since they are among the heavier elements in a car and will affect the handling of the car, and of course the gap between the inside face of the magnet and the outside crowns of the arm poles.  If you start honing magnets, you will also find that they often are not exactly the same distance from the arm at their centers as they are at their tips.  The basic magnet material of ceramics doesn't seem to have changed much in a while...I think, *except I guess for "radially oriented" magnets, and segmented ceramics, but there still so many things to consider with magnets, it can make your head hurt.  Alan's answer seems the best and most direct/simple answer here though!


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#4 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 11:23 AM

As we have seen with the 'Phoenix', the gear ratio sweet spot also is much narrower to reduce motor burnout.


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#5 Bill from NH

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 12:42 PM

Just as tip shape is important, so is tip strength.You want match the tip strength on the leading edges of  the magnets & that of the trailing edges too..


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#6 Danny Zona

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 01:02 PM

Trial and error. Best way to test
Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Luck is the residue of design.

KELLY RACING 😎

#7 MSwiss

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 06:18 PM

Like other posts alluded to, first you have to determine if the mags you are switching to, are really stronger.

You can easily get faked out by using a gaussmeter with a wand.

Those are really only valuable to check magnets of the exact same dimension.

The shape of the inner face will determine a lot.

A mag with an open face will look stronger, but in reality, it most likely is because that open face is allowing the Hall sensor, that is embedded in the wand, to get closer to the material.

Also, in the case of cobalt mags, anyway, if you take 2 magnets with the same shape and thickness, but one is shorter, that shorter mag will usually give you a higher max reading.

Like Danny said, it's best to test.

And don't go by just a few hot laps.

Run the length of a race heat.

While you might get your fastest lap, the first one, keep an eye on the monitor making sure after it drops off a few hundredths, it doesn't keep dropping.

Lap times should level off, and stay there.
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#8 Dallas Racer

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 01:12 PM

That's really interesting!


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#9 Dallas Racer

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 02:04 PM

Back in the '80s, I had a Hi-Pro C can setup that had a really thick can that I ran in I-15. The thick can increased the magnet strength and it did knock off a lot of top end. So I ended up cutting away most of the top and bottom of the can to emulate the Koford square cobalt cans of the day. Everyone told me it would run too hot but it didn't. And it was a rocket. Set a new qualifying record first time out.

 

But on the other hand, don't C-12 motors rev higher than Boxstock motors? It's been a long time since I raced those so maybe I remember wrong.


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#10 MSwiss

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:07 PM

No, Boxstock's rev higher.

 

I remember when I raced C12 a little,in the early 2000's, I did a 10/38/64P-11/42/72P, comparison test, to see if the finer pitch was an advantage.

 

Boxstock guys were 9-38 or 39 (less serious racers), and 10-42,43, or 44.(serious Boxstock guys)


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#11 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:45 PM

Did you notice an advantage with the finer pitch?
David Parrotta

#12 MSwiss

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 06:43 PM

Lap times, on Orange or Blue, punched, were identical.

But the 64P 3.800 is slightly hotter than the 72P 3.818, so the 72P combo might of provided slightly cooler running.

I didn't try running full 3 minute heats to see if that would bear out, because the 2nd test would be with a motor with 3 more minutes on it, slightly more worn (but truer) tires.

Too many variables.

I did switch to 72P, for good, after moving out of my Semi at a race in Tulsa, and then getting a loaner from Beuf, that was 72P, and finishing 2nd, to him, in the Main.
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Mike Swiss
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#13 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:22 AM

My experience is the same between 64p and 72p. I've not done enough testing on 48p to have an opinion.
David Parrotta

#14 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:17 AM

Bigger tooth/ more robust; smaller tooth subject to more damage.  More teeth per gear will give a smoother mesh with reduced friction.  Friction produces noise. Not all sounds are from gears. Quiet cars are fast cars.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
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#15 MSwiss

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:27 AM

The timer doesn't lie.

I didn't notice any difference in smoothest or noise.

10-38, with a C12 motor, was a virtual perfect sidewinder.

I remember having G27 motors that were tiny "reverse" anglewinders.

IOW, the motor shaft was closer to the axle, in the endbell side of the motor.

Mike Swiss
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516






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