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Any information on RM Arrow or Mossetti Avenger?


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#1 Highnoon

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 07:42 PM

Saw the arrow at the flexipoolza, looked interesting.

Anyone running on a lightly banked Gerding King?

Any idea in total chassis weight.

How about the new Avenger, same questions.
Gary Cooper




#2 TallyBernie

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 10:44 AM

Hello,

 

I ran the Arrow on an older Tunkel Engleman and Tunkel Blue King. I do not remember the Arrow's weight but recall it was low, especially when configured with the available aluminum pans. In limited testing, the frame seemed quite capable, p-e-r-h-a-p-s on par with a similarly equipped Mossetti Defender, but the Arrow was very fragile. The Arrow's center section became badly deranged after some realy gentle offs; I had no explanation for the amount of damage relative to the slight offs. That ended my Arrow testing. I contacted RM and they explained the frame I had was first generation and its successor had a stronger center section. Regrettably RM did not offer a replacement, but such is the case for early purchase/trial. I presume the frame you recently saw is RM's updated Arrow with a stouter center section. 

 

My teammate and I are currently racing the Mossetti Avenger together with the Defender on our tracks. Mossetti publishes the weight of each frame and available pans; please see that info on Mossetti's FB page. Both frames are great on our tracks - Blue King, Engleman, and Orange. The Avenger in its lightest configuration may be 0.1 sec quicker than a similarly outfitted Defender. I understand the Avenger is advertised as a flat track frame, but it is perfectly at home on our tracks. 

 

I hope this info helps..


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#3 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 01:34 PM

I have heavily tested the aluminum pan Arrow, vs. Defender, vs. Avenger, vs. JK C43. 

 

To start all are within a tenth of each other on any given day on our semi fast American King. Lap times are in the low to mid 4.0 range with .750 tires, Hawk 7 geared 11/36, Renedage .007 body and weighing 75 - 77 grams.

 

Arrow - Personally I have run the fastest times most consistently with the Arrow. It feels the most planted and it never feels different lap to lap. The biggest downside is the pan itself. It is a train wreck out of the package. It is lightened so much that when they form the body clip tabs it distorts the pan something awful. One took 2 hours to get to a comfortable flatness, but never to the point of being perfect. The other issue I found was that the crossover that connects the pans needs to be a tad higher. On both of mine the pans sat up a little in the back. I could lightly sand the underside, but technically this would be illegal. The performance does not seem restricted regardless which is a testament to the center section design. A small piece of silicone tape horizontally from each side of the pan at the rear helps not only restrict pan movement, but center the long pans which makes transitioning of the car much better. The smallest incident with tweak the pan. Keeping it straight will be a constant part of your pit strategy on raceday. I will say that the car still runs the number even when it gets bent. Fit and finish is crude compared to the Mossetti and JK chassis. I would like to see the pan flattened and then hard anodized. I think it would really help robustness. Rough weekly races are not friendly to this chassis.

 

Avenger - If traction is medium to low bite, you may prefer this center section with a defender pan. It has a little more fluid torsional twist and up and down movement of the center rails. It however can be a little inconsistent on higher speed tracks as due to the additional movement the car can gain extra traction at times allowing it to become unbalanced and deslot. 

 

JK C43 - Solid and consistent. Don't waste the money on the aluminum pan, the front ears will tweak up just running through the bank, even if you run a full length pin tube across the front. The stainless pan works great and the extra weight does not hinder performance. It is a very planted platform and can easily be my favorite chassis on various race days. It is always the best performer in the donut and probably why it is such a great flat track platform. Like the Arrow I add silicone tape horizontally to help center the pan. You will also want to add bullet tape under the pan crossover bar to stop up and down pan movement .007 - .010. Likewise you will want to shim the J bars.

 

Defender - For most days it is just the go to chassis. It just seems to do everything well and is easily tuned with tires. Biggest negative can be the rear uprights. Check for cracking after they have been formed. Additionally on the left side there can be a small hump on the bottom from when they form the upright which can hinder getting the car flat. 

 

On all I limit bitebar movement and tape them down.


Matt Sheldon

#4 Jay Guard

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 02:05 PM

Hey Matt:

Great info on the various Flexi chassis!  One question though, you mention "silicone" tape several places, did you by any chance mean sticky-back teflon tape?  That's what I use and and as you mentioned it really seems to help settle/smooth things out.  If indeed you are using silicone tape where do you get it?


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#5 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 02:12 PM

Hey Matt:

Great info on the various Flexi chassis!  One question though, you mention "silicone" tape several places, did you by any chance mean sticky-back teflon tape?  That's what I use and and as you mentioned it really seems to help settle/smooth things out.  If indeed you are using silicone tape where do you get it?

 

Hi Jay,

 

We are probably talking the same tape. I get it from McMaster Carr. The recently changed part #'s on it. It is listed as Silicone tape and is orange in color as it is a high temp application.

 

McMaster Carr part # 1466N11 1/2" x 36" 1/32" thickness


Matt Sheldon

#6 Jay Guard

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 02:15 PM

Thanks for the info Matt, I'll check it out.


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#7 MSwiss

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 02:31 PM

A little aside.

 

We were racing our monthly fun race GTP race.

 

One of the fast guys was falling off in a turn he shouldn't of.

 

I stopped the race a few times to roll the braid, even though it didn't seem to be up.

 

I finally looked at his car and informed him 1 of the 4 pin tube uprights, on his aluminum pan, had snapped off / was missing.

 

His answer was "Yeah, I know....it's been that way for awhile".

 

He's running with 3 body mounts and he's acting like that's normal. LOL

 

One of the other local hot GTP racers, quit running in the weekly GTP races, down the street, because he was tired of tearing up his car, running hypersonic speeds, on the Gerding King. (with having to run a light, flimsy car, to stay at the front of the pack)

 

It seems like a weight minimum with these cars, to discourage aluminum pans, would be beneficial.


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Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#8 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 02:37 PM

A little aside.

 

We were racing our monthly fun race GTP race.

 

One of the fast guys was falling off in a turn he shouldn't of.

 

I stopped the race a few times to roll the braid, even though it didn't seem to be up.

 

I finally looked at his car and informed him 1 of the 4 pin tube uprights, on his aluminum pan, had snapped off / was missing.

 

His answer was "Yeah, I know....it's been that way for awhile".

 

He's running with 3 body mounts and he's acting like that's normal. LOL

 

One of the other local hot GTP racers, quit running in the weekly GTP races, down the street, because he was tired of tearing up his car, running hypersonic speeds, on the Gerding King. (with having to run a light, flimsy car, to stay at the front of the pack)

 

It seems like a weight minimum with these cars, to discourage aluminum pans, would be beneficial.

 

We had a local racer propose a 100-gram weight minimum for Flexi. My response to that is that we already have it, it is called Retro CanAm.

 

I built a JK C21 out of old parts using an OS Bentlee body and still ran upper 4.2's with it. It weighed 98 grams. Personally, it will not change the finishing order or even really change the lap totals. If we are going to make all the classes the same, then just make it 1 class.


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#9 MSwiss

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 02:44 PM

I didn't say it would change the finishing order.

 

Just allow people to finish.

 

On our Wednesday night GTP, we race all steel, .035" JK C7's, based on close-out RTR cars, Jerry & Tim had sold me, over a 5-7 year period.

 

Recently I had to also allow the C21, so new people could buy RTR's, and get involved.

 

PS-IMO, the 2 100G cars you describe, along with having 2 different price points, have 2 different personalities.


Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#10 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 03:51 PM

I didn't say it would change the finishing order.

 

Just allow people to finish.

 

On our Wednesday night GTP, we race all steel, .035" JK C7's, based on close-out RTR cars, Jerry & Tim had sold me, over a 5-7 year period.

 

Recently I had to also allow the C21, so new people could buy RTR's, and get involved.

 

PS-IMO, the 2 100G cars you describe, along with having 2 different price points, have 2 different personalities.

 

Doesn't make sense to have classes that racers have to buy their parts off eBay that are discontinued or 15 year old technology.

 

Everything in Slotcar racing shouldn't be old technology. I like the idea of spec racing, but with limits. As a track owner you need to do what satisfies the majority of your racers, I would respect that decision at any track I race at, but not if parts were not readily available at the parts department of the raceway.

 

The price points are very similar when you factor in that Flexi body consumption is higher. Latest versions of CanAm are driving more and more like Flexi's daily.

 

To your original concern, I have not seen aluminum pan failure as being an epidemic. I would think that spur gear failure from coming out and being hit in the rear would be the #1 issue for a DNF (weight not a factor), broken lead wire from hitting the person that came out (weight not a factor) and lastly spun pinion (weight not a factor). 

 

My original response directly answered the OP's question. As a blog admin,  world-class slot racer, product manufacturer and successful track owner you have grossly ignored that.


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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 04:11 PM

I clearly said as an aside.

My comment had nothing to do with the information you provided the OP.

I never said other raceways should run C7's or even the readily available C21.

Just that I do.

My point was that I had to stop the race twice, making the day longer for the other racers, and myself, for a car that had only had three body mounts.

And another guy quit racing a class, in a weekly race, because he was tired of bending up his cars.

I thought the point of slot racing, was to slot race / have participation.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#12 Highnoon

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:54 AM

Thanks Matt for the useful information.

I have decided to get into flexi more and run GT1 and LMP in addition to wing car group f and GTP. I have run GTP but not that seriously. I would rather run something else but that all that’s available to race in Northern Ohio.

The race to build the lightest flexi while great for the manufacturers is not great for slot racers. This consistent arms race of who can build the lightest center section and pans is crazy. Also these aluminum pans bend, the center sections bend. I know, don’t crash but easier said than done on a King.
Gary Cooper

#13 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 05:41 PM

Thanks Matt for the useful information.

I have decided to get into flexi more and run GT1 and LMP in addition to wing car group f and GTP. I have run GTP but not that seriously. I would rather run something else but that all that’s available to race in Northern Ohio.

The race to build the lightest flexi while great for the manufacturers is not great for slot racers. This consistent arms race of who can build the lightest center section and pans is crazy. Also these aluminum pans bend, the center sections bend. I know, don’t crash but easier said than done on a King.

 

Anytime Gary!

 

The Mossetti Defender center section is as strong as they come! Nothing from prior generations of any manufacturer is stronger or of a better material regardless of weight. As far as aluminum pans bending, if you bend a Defender aluminum pan, you pretty much would have bent anything else ever made with the exception of a Champion Turbo steel pan. It is just that good overall. I race GTP flexi every weekend. I crash a lot and I am terrible at looking ahead. I have only ever had 1 chassis since 2008 not be able to finish a race due to being bent. Additionally, if you are racing for 10th place, a little extra weight of a steel pan will probably work to your advantage.

 

In my opinion, the race towards a better, lighter chassis is not an issue. If we are really worried about a $30-$40 upgraded chassis every 3-4 months, then we should maybe consider a different hobby. But that's just me possibly as well. I like variations and I like options. SlotCar racing is great because we can have that for a reasonable price with the exception of Eurosport and upper-class wing racing.

 

Like anything, there is a startup cost and that can be confusing, expensive and overwhelming at times. But once you have it, it really is good for years to decades moving forward. 


Matt Sheldon





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