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JK Hawk Retro vs JK Hawk 7


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#1 Fernan Dotriveri

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 11:39 PM

Hi,

 

In our club we're having a controversy about the JK Hawk Retro and JK Hawk 7 motor specs. Please can you tell me what's the difference between them? Perhaps the number of armature wire turns? Which one is better in terms of performance?

Your answer about this subject will be very appreciated. I've searched the web but I haven't found any conclusive information.

Many regards from Córdoba, Argentina.






#2 DOCinCanton

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 08:41 AM

All I can tell you is that the JK Hawk 7 is slightly faster than the JK Hawk Retro. If your track is difficult to drive you might want to go with the Hawk Retro. If your track has a lot of banking in the turns, then maybe you might get more enjoyment with the Hawk 7.

 

A search will find the difference in the winding and timing of the commutator.


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#3 Cheater

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 08:47 AM

The JK Hawk Retro is a IRRA® approved motor and as such the motor's specs can be found in the IRRA® motor rules.

 

• 65 turns of 30 AWG wire

• Stack length - .390"
• Arm timing - 15 degrees nominal, commutator tied
• Diameter - .513"

 

The Hawk 7 isn't an IRRA® approved motor so that motor's specs are not available in the rules.


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#4 MSwiss

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 08:56 AM

Like the previous two posts state, the Hawk Retro is 65t and and not quite as fast as the Hawk 7.

The Hawk 7, if I remember correctly, is 58 or 59 turns of the same gauge wire, and has the same timing.


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#5 russm2002

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 09:08 AM

Hawk 7 is 60 turns of 30, Retro Hawk, 65 turns of 30. Otherwise the same.


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#6 JK Products

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 09:35 AM

The Hawk Retro is correct as specified.

The Hawk 7 has 3 fewer turns and everything else is the same (except for shaft armature shaft length on the M8).
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#7 russm2002

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 01:01 PM

I stand corrected!! Learn something new every day!


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#8 Tim Wood

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 07:49 PM

I disagree about everything is the same on the Hawk 7 and Hawk Retro. I believe the RPM is different. Hawk 7 is usually more consistant and faster motor side by side. Hell, what do I know. BPR Thursday night racing. 

 

Curious why don't they use a Hawk 7 in the races like a ISRA or OCC  or even out here for a SCRRA group race; they cost the same.  :victory:

 

Tim Wood


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#9 Jason Holmes

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 09:51 PM

Tim,

Read what you posted and think. They do use the H7 on Thursday and less winds mean more RPM, i.e. faster. The IRRA® and SCRRA set an arm spec for their motors of use and the H7 doesn't meet the spec; easy to know why.
 
jason



#10 Tim Wood

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 09:28 AM

Thanks, Jason.

Yeah, we use the Hawk 7 in Thursday night LMP race. This is why I would think the Hawk 7 is much more consistant across the board than the Hawk Retro RRRRRRRR. You can buy one Hawk 7 compared to purchasing three Hawk Retros just to get a good motor. Check the times on the racers on Thursday and look how close they are. More fun racing this way and the motor is faster.

I would think the boards on these groups could change the specs on motors allowed. So the H7 doesn't meet the spec, easy to know why. I seem to be missing something here. 

Thanks,
 
Tim

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#11 MSwiss

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 09:57 AM

You are racing Thursday night, apparently just on the flat track.

Are you buying three Hawk Retros to find a good one to race on the flat track or the King?


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
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#12 John Streisguth

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 11:06 AM

Tim,

 

If the racing groups changed motors every time they turned around, people would have piles of motors that are no longer useful or competitive. IRRA® has already gone through this twice, and once was with the same motor, just different batches. 

 

Constantly changing motor specs is a sure way to drive off racers.  

 

IMO, of course...


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#13 Tim Wood

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 07:07 PM

You are racing Thursday night, apparently just on the flat track.

Are you buying three Hawk Retros to find a good one to race on the flat track or the King?

 

  Hey Mike,

 On Thursday we run H7 LMP. The SCRRA races both Flat and King, F1 & Can-Am Use Hawk Retro for both tracks. Can Run a TSR or Falcon 7 on flat track if you have one. Those are hard to come by anymore. Thats why I am saying H7 I can buy 1 or 2 at a time and get a good motor maybe 2 are good. As Retro Hawk buy 3 motors maybe you get luckey and get 1 good motor. I am still learning more on breaking motors in. So any suggestions is great. Water, Simple green, run low volts for 10 min at a time.  Tried a few differant ways. Seems best just to run H7 or Retro Hawk on low volts off and on until you get brushes almost seated. Still learning the ropes but that is part of the fun of it. I just think H7 could work on what ever track or cars you run. Almost forgot at BPR 1/32 flexi GTP on the small Kingleman they went from Retro Hawk to now using Hawk 7 cars still handle great and times are faster and pretty even across the board. I just H7  is more consistant motor. Fast is good. I understand trying to keep  consistant rules across the differant associations makes sense so if you travel to race, classes are some what the same or familar and or chassis, bodies, ect. Probably through the years Associations have changed motors over time cause some are not made any more. But now you have a few you can choose from. Some people might have 50 Retro Hawks in there garage but what for if they don't produce, Same with H7. Got to have a fast motor to compete. I have just had better luck with consistantcy with the H7 that's all.  Thanks for listening

 

 

 

   Tim Wood


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#14 MSwiss

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 07:23 PM

So you don't use the Hawk 7, on the King, in any class?


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
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#15 wjtaylor

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 08:34 PM

we have been using the phoenix motor in both LMP and our wing cars on the king. A couple of weeks ago a few guys asked if we could do a Hawk 7 LMP race on the king same day as the Phoenix LMP race.

 

Hopefully this thursday we will get enough guys to bring H7 cars to race


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#16 MSwiss

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 08:54 PM

I just don't see how 2 motors, made in same factory, with virtually the same specs(3 turn difference) could wind up with one way more consistent.

 

More likely, the perception is the product of one being raced on only a technical track, and in a totally different type of car.


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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#17 dalek

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 08:18 AM

I just don't see how 2 motors, made in same factory, with virtually the same specs(3 turn difference) could wind up with one way more consistent.

 

More likely, the perception is the product of one being raced on only a technical track, and in a totally different type of car.

 

I know you're just quoting Tim in regard to the "3 turns" but it's actually 6 turns (I just counted them) -- HR 65 turns, H7 59 turns.  

 

I agree with your opinion that H7's would not likely be more consistent than HR's or visa versa. 

 

I'm happy to say that my experience over the last few months regarding the 9-R's short-shaft HR's and the 9-7's H7's is that they are consistently fast.

 

I prefer the HR because the brakes tend to stay better for a longer period of time.

 

Also it kinda seems like there are fewer of the 2-speed (aka 2-step) and slow-when-cold and it's-a-dog problems with the HR's as opposed to the H7's.  However, going a lot higher on the gearing than Tim's recommended 3:1 ratio with .750 tires (from another thread), often solves those problems.

 

In other words, if the car is geared 36/12, I'll regear it to 36/13.  This often makes the car competitive enough to be worth racing.


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#18 CDavis7

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 01:27 PM

I just don't see how 2 motors, made in same factory, with virtually the same specs(3 turn difference) could wind up with one way more consistent.
 
More likely, the perception is the product of one being raced on only a technical track, and in a totally different type of car.


At higher voltages, the differences between mediocre, average, and stellar are more pronounced on weaker motors such as a retro hawk as compared to H7.

Turn down the power and retro hawks become more consistent in hp. Its why most any retro hawk is good on Modelvilles Royal at 10v
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#19 MSwiss

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 01:56 PM

Are you sure it's because of the low voltage, or the the length and configuration of the track?

IOW, try running 10V on the Gerding King, and see if it still holds true.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#20 CDavis7

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 02:25 PM

Swiss- Im certain that track length will also be an influencing factor. However, bench testing has demonstrated some of what I said.

In the end, Im still amazed at the consistency in general, considering the price point.

I have no complaints
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#21 CDavis7

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 04:04 PM

Swiss- out of curiosity, have you tried comparing a hot versus not retro hawk on your king? Then turned down the power to compare?

Thatd be cool to see
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#22 MSwiss

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 04:12 PM

No.

Testing like that is for raceway owners who don't have a landlord who likes her rent on time every month. LOL.


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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#23 Ron Sullo

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 08:43 AM

Fact or Fiction

 

After the Simple Green 10 second spin followed by hot water 10 second spin followed by air dry blower then a spritz of Performance or CDC then 30 minutes of leaving them alone and checking the comm sparkle and brush seating - adding a bit of lube on endbell side before 5-7 minutes on 4 volts... I then check the amps pulled and make notes.

 

The above process comes from hours of reading (Slotblog only) best practices from distinguished racers. JK's RH and H7 package directions state otherwise.

 

IMO this blog opens a window for me to ask - without being too embarrassed - to learn if the following is fact or fiction:

 

Will the HR/H7 motor with the lower amp reading after the break-in be the silver bullet of choice?

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

Have a nice day.  :)

 

Ron S.


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#24 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:01 AM

Typically you want the motors that draw more amps.
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#25 Ron Sullo

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 10:58 AM

Great advice from a great racer !


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