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Making a series simpler and increasing attendance?


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#1 DOCinCanton

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 09:16 AM

So my subject matter is two fold:

1) how does one simplify the rules, and at the same time,

2) increase interest and attendance. (like getting more local racers involved with the series when the series comes to their home track.)

 

In the case of bodies it seems like it simplifies the body rules if any body is allowed. But I don't think so. There are a ton of GTP bodies out there. So the experienced racer will find a body he likes best. However, this can become the body of the week thing. I guess that I am in favor of spec bodies. Just name 2 or 3 and be done with it.

 

Another point is that I think that the raceways should run weekly car class EXACTLY as the FSCS rules or change the FSCS rules to match up with the local raceway rules. In my experience, the best example of this is when the Pinellas Park hillclimb track was in Jacksonville. Rollin and Johnny ran weekly races whereby the weekly rules were identical to the MY Series rules. Consequently, Rollin had the best attendance at his MY Series races than any other raceway by far.

 

Also, local racers seem to try one or two FSCS races when the series comes to their home track. But they find out that they can not compete with the best racers and they give up attending the State level races. I remember that it took me 3 years before I was able to beat guys like Terry, Dennis, Matt and several others. (DZ: I did not mention you because I don't think that I have ever beaten you.) I think that some racers expect to much to begin with and get frustrated when they realize they are not going to finish on the podium in their first 1 or 2 races.

 

So what should we do? What's your opinion?

 

 


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My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
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#2 Jay Guard

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 11:02 AM

Although I personally like the idea of a very limited, or even spec, body I don't think it will be best for general participation.  Unfortunately many racers, especially the new guys, are not aware of or do not read the series rules and then get bounced at the tech table.  After that happens a time or two they are generally fed up and you never see them again.  If you have very open rules it may not lead to closer racing but at least it will be easier to join in and I think this may be the lesser of the two evils.

 

I totally agree with syncing the local raceways and FSCS rules.  I don't so much care who changes which rules but I feel it is absolutely imperative that the rules are the same.  Probably another reason why a "open" ruleset would be the better option.

 

It's true that the better racers will find the best equipment and still be on the podium but at least the others can see what they were using and purchase it for the next race.

 

As for spec pinions I'm personally all for that but again, it flies in the face of an "open" ruleset and is somewhat difficult to tech.

 

BTW... The FSCS BoD is always open to suggestions and does care what the racers think, so please feel free to chime in here and give us your opinion on any FSCS relevant topic.


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#3 Jeff Bonanno

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 11:10 AM

back in the day and i'm talking FSRA!? There were two divisions that competed, a Pro class and a Amateur class and the winner or top 2 of the amateur points series would than move up to the Pro!.

 

Question is how to decide who is pro and amateur? Well you gotta start somewhere and majority could start in amateur but basically just gotta see who signs up as an Amateur or pro.

 

leave the body's mainly open so it's easier to join. defiantly having an amateur class could have more interest since they do not have to compete with the pros and if they happen to win the points then well they should theoretically ready for pro division!?

 

Spec pinion? i like the idea. this would keep the racing a little closer.


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#4 Jay Guard

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 11:29 AM

I like the idea of pro and amateur classes and how about this idea.  Although it seems counterintuitive, make the Pro class virtually a "spec" class and leave the amateur class almost completely open.  The pro guys should be sharp enough to know what the rules are and will bring the proper set-up if they want to run.  But in the amateur class almost anything will be allowed to run which may increase participation in that class.  In addition the amateur class rules should be what the track owners use for their weekly local races.   And remember, often in the amateur class it's not having the best equipment that wins.  And yeah, if someone is dominating the amateur class they can expect to get "promoted" to the pro class for the next series.


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#5 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:01 PM

Pro, Semi-Pro and Amateur worked real well for years in the late sixties and early seventies, everyone ran open motors (C-Can Opens) and things went pretty good. Of course there were guys that could not solder on a pinion or set their cars up but they had cash which bought them support from the pros and their teams.

 

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#6 Danny Zona

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:24 PM

I don't mind a spec pinion if the spec pinion isn't to low of a gearing ratio.
I'm pretty sure most racers are more than likely using the same size pinion anyway.

When the spec pinion gearing ratio is to low racers like me will jig cars with bigger tires for correct roll out ratio and have a few scenarios of tire sizes. Which hurts the average racer.

That being said I think it would be relatively easy to pick a spec pinion size which works at the three tracks in the series. At least on the hillclimbs but the oval tracks could be tougher.

IMO.

Either way it wouldn't be a deterrent for me.
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#7 John Streisguth

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 02:32 PM

I run the Penn-Jersey NASCAR series, and the bottom of the 3 classes (truck) is very limited.  One chassis, one motor (4002FK), spec pinion, choice of 4 bodies (all one brand).  The only real option is what tire you choose. Keeps it simple and the racing is super close. The top class has multiple chassis options, runs a fast motor (gp 12 in either C-can or 4002).  Still only 4 body choices but the disparity in how people run is much greater.  IMO, a good series can provide something for most (not everyone...some people won't be happy with any rule set  LOL)  


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#8 Brian Czeiner

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:10 PM

Just my two cents and perhaps some outside thinking. Run amateur with a break out with very very loose rules and pro with some mild limitations? Amateur would give lesser racers, even newbies, a chance to win increasing attendance. Pro offers a chance for lesser racers to learn without being frustrated or spending so much money on testing or latest greatest.


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#9 DOCinCanton

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 04:39 PM

A few years ago, we did have 2 driver groups, experienced and amateur/novice. The first year that we had 2 driver groups was a great success. The second year was slightly successful. As it turned out, we actually eliminated qualifying because we did not have enough drivers in either driver class to warrant qualifying.  With 12 or less racers, lanes were selected by a random process. Finally, the same amateur racers always finished on the podium, but we did not have enough racers in the amateur driver class (the amateur driver class usually had only 5 or 6 racers) to move anybody up. So eventually, we eliminated the driver designation.


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#10 Kim Lander

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:31 PM

I may have missed the boat here but anyways this is what I see....RULES.....not being sure what is regulations or isnt.   Most racers will not or in some cases cannot look online for the rules and most that do wont make a copy of the rules and get frustrated having to go back and forth to the computer and just say the heck with it. Now...that being said..I remember the days when you could go to the track and pick up a set of ALREADY printed out rules, ie. Parma Rules, USRA rules etc etc. It would be real nice if that was done still, and there would be (in my opinion) more racers because of knowing ahead of time the rules and regulations......Just my opinion....Kim


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#11 Jay Guard

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:48 PM

That's a good idea Kim, I think it would help existing racers and probably help entice casual racers or maybe even bystanders to participate.


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#12 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:29 PM

Most tracks, local series, etc. do a pretty terrible job with making their rulesets easily and readily available. Then you run into a lot of grey areas a lot of times where an experienced racer can exploit those grey areas and leave the new racer additionally frustrated. I personally like a structured ruleset that is enforced, but anymore people just don't like being told what to do or how to do it. 

 

My version of simple is show up with a legal car, pass tech, race how you want to race and allow others to do the same. Marshal in a fair and appropriate manner and accept the outcome of your raceday. If we all did that, the racedays would be so much easier.


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#13 Biscuit

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 08:19 PM

I havent seen the fscs rules lately and its been a while since ive made it to a race. Here is my input... aligning the fscs rules with the tracks is a no brainer it has to be done to even have a chance at participation. Rules need to be posted and readily available at all tracks. Maybe a couple sets printed out at each race. About the cars... the bodies have gotten crazy out of hand. The nascars have diaplanes and step spoilers with sides. The gt1 bodies now have as much downforce as a gtp, except they dont cause the new gtp bodies make the cars handle like wing cars. Not sure what the answer is there. But if you want to know the biggest problem, its still that theres just too many races. Impossible to make both series so having to pick and choose hurts all races then the locals dont get hyped to race the poor turnouts so it just snowballs. There should be emphasis put on the local programs and when there is a state race coming up you can feel the buzz because everyone is excited. Right now there is a grrrr or fscs race every other week and its tough. We also have a wing series in the mix that racers are also exposed to and just adds to a busy schedule.
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#14 Tampabay racer

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 08:42 PM

What about every other month with the grrr and FSCS so they swap months? They way the group that does race both series can do so much less expensive?

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#15 Biscuit

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 10:11 PM

That would be better than how it is now. Each series can hit each track then maybe a double point championship race at the end with a ton of hype around it. Awards enduro to cap off year for each and a couple months off doesnt hurt. People can support the local tracks instead of the oil companies from all the traveling.
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#16 DOCinCanton

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 09:32 AM

There are only two racers in the State of Florida that run nearly every race in both the FSCS and GRRR. Terry Tawney and me, that's it.

 

So scheduling every other month for both series would only punish the raceway owners, They would loose 2 good pay days each year. I don't see a benefit here.


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#17 dalek

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 10:42 AM

The problem:  How to attract the locals.
 
Most drivers are not interested in how they place in the overall championships.
 
The following statistics are from  the NASCAR class:  
 
The decline in participation (mostly due to fewer local driver entries):  
56 entries -- 2017
38 entries -- 2018 Spring
27 entries -- 2018 Fall
23 entries -- 2019 Spring
 
 
The following statistics indicate that most drivers are not interested in traveling -- in other words, are not interested in how they place in the overall championships:  
 
2017 -- an all-year series (12 races -- 2 races dropped)
-- of the 56 drivers that entered at least 1 race, only 9 drivers (16 %) entered at least 10 of the races
 
2018 -- Spring series (6 races -- 1 race dropped)
-- of the 38 drivers that entered at least 1 race, only 6 drivers (16 %) entered at least 5 of the races
 
2018 -- Fall series (6 races -- 1 race dropped)
-- of the 27 drivers that entered at least 1 race, only 5 drivers (19 %) entered at least 5 of the races
 
2019 -- Spring (6 races -- 1 race dropped)
-- of the 23 drivers that entered at least 1 race, only 8 drivers (35 %) entered at least 5 of the races
 
The statistics are from the championship results (below).
 
Attached images
FSCS 2017 - final - NASCAR.gif
FSCS 2018_1 Spring - 1 - NASCAR Standings thru 2018-06-09 races.gif
FSCS 2018_2 Fall - NASCAR standings thru final race.gif
FSCS 2019_1 Spring - 1 - NASCAR Standings thru 2019-06-01 races.gif

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#18 dalek

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 11:34 AM

The problem:  How to attract the locals.
 
Possible solution:  A hybrid of multiple podiums as well as a championship.
 
Have qualifying then have two standalone races.  The slower half of the racers race against each other and have a podium.  Then the faster half have their own podium.  This has been working very well at P-1 for years.  It keeps the slower drivers coming back because they have a reasonable chance of making a podium.
 
If anyone that ran in the slower half, wants to compete in the championship and plans on traveling to the other FSCS raceways, then wherever their car stopped would be marked, as is currently being done when races are combined.  This driver's finish position would then be blended, on paper only, with the faster half's race, in order to assign the proper number of points towards the championship.
 
 


#19 Rob Voska

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 06:52 PM

One body helps traveling racers.  Works for ISRA.


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#20 Biscuit

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 10:10 PM

Less races is meant to give more than 2 people a chance to try and commit to both series. Just about everyone has both types of cars but there is no way people with families can manage 2 out of town weekends a month for slot cars. Its just realistic thinking. The biggest problem that the oversaturated schedule creates is the lack of healthy local programs. When guys travel more they have to eat it somewhere and that obviously comes at the expense of their local track.
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#21 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 01:03 AM

Recollection that the guys that raced Pro or Semi-Pro back in the old days were the locals, for example in AZ there were only two guys then four that traveled to races. Dave Fortner would come up from Tucson to race with the guys from Phoenix and I'd get down to Tucson to race with those guys. Once Jerry Findley, Ken Wallace, Jack Gorman and I went down to Tucson to try our hand against the guys coming back from the big San Antonio Hemisfair race. We had never seen tracks like these before so we got trounced, at least we looked like a team as we stopped in at Yellow Front and bought bright Orange tee shirts. No locals made it out of their first consie or semi and the Phoenix guys ate it big, I made an impression by puffing ten of my motors all handwinds by me. If it had not been by the SoCal guys making the visit there would have been six locals and maybe two of us racing. You need the circus of guys that will travel to races to make an event like the old ARCO races or Pepsie races, can't do it with locals only. When Dave and I would hit CA most of the guys were from all over LA & SF that made the drive, we were an oddity but did pretty well in the lower ranks, eventually getting moved up.

 

If there was a "Big" race held in Phoenix or Tucson and no out of townees came it was just the same eight or nine guys running against each other. So encourage guys to travel to race even once and a while, you need numbers.

 

Jess Gonzales



#22 The Number of

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 09:33 AM

  Easiest way to increase attendence, 2 words, FREE BEER! :)


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#23 tonyp

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 05:10 PM

Technology kills racing. The cost to keep up is one of the main reason people quit.

Make the rules simple, with as few options as possible for the lower classes and let the fast class be the open class.

Maybe make the slowest class the most restricted with spec parts. Racers need a car they can leave in there box between races and be competitive when they pull it out at the next race. Not everyone has the time or money to work on their stuff everyday. Having spec gearing without specified tire size now requires a tire cutter. You need a simple class to get new people involved.

Plus Florida we have drivers traveling 2 plus hours to race. They need to know at least one class they will have the same equipment as everyone else.


Split drivers into A&b divisions and promote the piss out of the B guys. This was something I always did in my retro east race reports. You got to cater to the B not A pro drivers.

All Raceway’s that participate in the series need to run the series rules.


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#24 Noose

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 06:07 PM

Promote the accomplishments of the winners/ podium of all mains especially the lower ones. That keeps them hungry and happy. It’s worked for us for 12 years.
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#25 axman

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 07:10 PM

I totally agree that in the interests of both the racers and track owners a common rule set should be adhered to. Here in Australia after many years of trying we now have a standard rule set that is used in all states on the Eastern seaboard. Race attendance is on the upswing and racers have more confidence to travel to other tracks. I think Doc Dougherty is correct in nominating body types.. it sure makes it a lot easier from both a stockists point of view and for the racer.  Where can I find FSCS rules? 


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