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Making a series simpler and increasing attendance?


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#26 bbr

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 07:12 PM

I like the "AM" and "PRO" classes in GTC. 

It gives the skill challenged racers a place to compete   :D 

 

we raced HO like that, it was cool to have a place for newbies to race.

the "AM" class can be speced out to keep cost down.


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#27 Half Fast

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 07:20 PM

Maybe make the slowest class the most restricted with spec parts. Racers need a car they can leave in there box between races and be competitive when they pull it out at the next race. Not everyone has the time or money to work on their stuff everyday.
 

 

I agree with all of da Big P's points, but the above is very important to keep Am racers coming back week after week.

 

Also tracks should have pre-built competitive AM class cars for sale and maintaining (for a fee of course) for those with more $ than time.

 

Cheers


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#28 DOCinCanton

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 07:46 PM

The FSCS rules are located in this same folder that you posted on this thread.


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#29 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 04:58 PM

Dale emailed me and asked that I comment on the Arrive & Drive thread.  I declined because it's been so long since I raced and I don't see racing in my foreseeable future.  He emailed me a second time ... and the link in that thread brought me to this thread.

 

What hasn't changed is I'm not smart enough to keep my mouth shut.   :)

 

 

 

So my subject matter is two fold:

1) how does one simplify the rules, and at the same time,

2) increase interest and attendance. (like getting more local racers involved with the series when the series comes to their home track.)

 

 

Another point is that I think that the raceways should run weekly car class EXACTLY as the FSCS rules or change the FSCS rules to match up with the local raceway rules. In my experience, the best example of this is when the Pinellas Park hillclimb track was in Jacksonville. Rollin and Johnny ran weekly races whereby the weekly rules were identical to the MY Series rules. Consequently, Rollin had the best attendance at his MY Series races than any other raceway by far.

 

 

So what should we do? What's your opinion?

 

 

 

Johnny and I had the advantage of opening SCR&H after My Series had already started.  That made it very easy to simply adopt the Series rules as our local rules. 

 

When Bill opened The Raceway.biz in Cocoa, the Series rules were already in place and he adopted the same rules.  When he moved to Melbourne his focus shifted more to the oval and drag racing.  I get it ... you have to race what the customers show up to race.

 

At The Race Place in Holly Hill, Greg ran his NASCAR class at The Race Place based off of the Series rules. The original My Series GTP rules were exactly what we used to race at The Race Place on Tuesday nights back in 2006/2007. 

 

For us in Jacksonville ..... It helped a ton that the vast majority of our racers understood what we were doing and supported the raceway's decision to follow the Series.  I understand that it would be much harder for a raceway to change their existing rules to match any Series.  You would run the risk of alienating your current racers by making their cars obsolete. 

 

And we made a lot of money by having a "built" race car for each class for sale in the case.  We made sure that it was an A-Main capable car (in the right hands) before we would sell it.

 

 

Just my two cents and perhaps some outside thinking. Run amateur with a break out with very very loose rules and pro with some mild limitations? Amateur would give lesser racers, even newbies, a chance to win increasing attendance. Pro offers a chance for lesser racers to learn without being frustrated or spending so much money on testing or latest greatest.

 

Just my personal .02 .... breakout ain't racin' ... it's pacin'.  It only offers the illusion of equality.  Kind of like sealed motors.  

 

I know it works for a lot of local tracks.  It didn't work here when SCR&H's predecessor (Buddy's Slot Car Speedway) was open so we didn't adopt those rules and grew as a result.

 

 

I may have missed the boat here but anyways this is what I see....RULES.....not being sure what is regulations or isnt.   Most racers will not or in some cases cannot look online for the rules and most that do wont make a copy of the rules and get frustrated having to go back and forth to the computer and just say the heck with it. Now...that being said..I remember the days when you could go to the track and pick up a set of ALREADY printed out rules, ie. Parma Rules, USRA rules etc etc. It would be real nice if that was done still, and there would be (in my opinion) more racers because of knowing ahead of time the rules and regulations......Just my opinion....Kim

 

At SCR&H we created a rules pamphlet that mimicked the style of the old Parma Challenge Cup rules.  Every customer was given one and one was with every Starter Kit.  That format was/is very easy for a racer to keep in his box.  I've attached the original version from when we opened in 2010.  I wish I was smart enough to know how to rotate the image.

 

We also had the current Series rules hanging on the wall and sitting on the counter at the track.  Plus we emailed to every racer that wanted it electronically.

 

The current Series rules are posted on this message board which makes it very easy to update.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem:  How to attract the locals.
 
Possible solution:  A hybrid of multiple podiums as well as a championship.
 
Have qualifying then have two standalone races.  The slower half of the racers race against each other and have a podium.  Then the faster half have their own podium.  This has been working very well at P-1 for years.  It keeps the slower drivers coming back because they have a reasonable chance of making a podium.
 
If anyone that ran in the slower half, wants to compete in the championship and plans on traveling to the other FSCS raceways, then wherever their car stopped would be marked, as is currently being done when races are combined.  This driver's finish position would then be blended, on paper only, with the faster half's race, in order to assign the proper number of points towards the championship.
 
 

 

 

 

Technology kills racing. The cost to keep up is one of the main reason people quit.

Make the rules simple, with as few options as possible for the lower classes and let the fast class be the open class.

Maybe make the slowest class the most restricted with spec parts. Racers need a car they can leave in there box between races and be competitive when they pull it out at the next race. Not everyone has the time or money to work on their stuff everyday. Having spec gearing without specified tire size now requires a tire cutter. You need a simple class to get new people involved.

Plus Florida we have drivers traveling 2 plus hours to race. They need to know at least one class they will have the same equipment as everyone else.


Split drivers into A&b divisions and promote the piss out of the B guys. This was something I always did in my retro east race reports. You got to cater to the B not A pro drivers.

All Raceway’s that participate in the series need to run the series rules.


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Dale .... TonyP nailed it on the head.  You get better local participation when you keep the cost down so guys can afford to race more often.  THEN when you race that exact same class at a Series event, it's easy for them to participate.

 

Y'all should listen to Tony .... I believe that the closer the cars are to stock, the bigger the participation.  The more changes you allow, the smaller the number of racers that will participate.  

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#30 gatormark

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Posted 08 November 2019 - 08:52 PM

If it aint cheap, folks aint coming. I saw this in sporting clays competition. Ya start with a fairly easy range setup where amateurs can bring field guns ,compete and have fun. Then ya got the upper level shooters beechin because they drive 2 hrs to shoot a fairly easy setup and it wasn't challenging enough,allthough nobody shot perfect 100 out of 100 scores. So to make the bitchers happy ya make the course tougher, add a 20 mph wind that day and the beginners are intimidated by the targets,they never come back,the whole thing dies off. Of course the bitchers are shooting 7k krieghoffs and berettas worth 10 k. If ya don't keep it cheap,it will die.
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#31 gatormark

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 04:11 PM

Arrive and drive spec series sounds great.
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#32 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 05:15 PM

You need to bring new people in consistently. That is the only way. Nothing else is nearly as important.
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#33 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 November 2019 - 09:37 AM

Base class: one motor, one chassis, very limited body choice. KISS principle

 


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#34 NSwanberg

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 03:40 AM

JK Cheetah 21 RTR! With a 100 gram minimum weight.


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#35 Bucky

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 01:34 PM

I disagree with the belief a spec car would increase attendance. Currently almost everyone uses the same motor, a Mossetti chassis, and the same body. Outside of tires and gear ratio the cars are already "spec." Forcing a specific chassis, tires, and body will just drive racers away as people won't want to buy new cars for a series that comes to their track twice a year.

Unless raceways run this spec class as part of their weekly program it will only hurt participation IMO. If anything, I think the previously discussed minimum weight would go further in ensuring equality while allowing guys to race cars already in their box.
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#36 John Streisguth

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 02:23 PM

Your second paragraph hits the nail on the head.  If every raceway runs something different, you'll have almost zero chance of getting people to buy something for when a traveling series comes to town..  The "serious" racers who do travel tend to be the ones that buy stuff regardless of how many times they'll actually get to use it.  


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#37 Tampabay racer

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Posted 25 November 2019 - 08:40 PM

Paying back the top 3 in their mains would bring some racers back. Drag racing pays, why dont road or ovals pay?

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#38 Danny Zona

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 12:05 AM

A turnoff for me with flexi racing is the durability factor.

Chassis have become so light and fragile. It only takes one minor wreck and chassis are bent badly. I know wrecks happen and it's part of racing but it's on a whole new level compared to say ten even five years ago.

Bodies are the same way. Super thin and fragile. I get they are faster but damn they are thin. I'm considered a speed crazed moron and think it's out of hand.

It's a big factor why I race Retro on a regular. They are way more durable. I never thought I would say this but I prefer wing racing over flexi racing lately because I believe they are way more durable than flexi racing as well.

I've suggested a minimum weight limit being set that would allow a complete steel chassi being able to compete but it apparently has no interest. Maybe it's been suggeted at the Raceways and racers are against it. I just like the fact it would allow a stronger chassi for the durability factor and it wouldn't eliminate aluminium pans with the option of adding weight. A slightly heavier car for a hair easier set-up and driving factor. In Retro GTC the cars are on the heavy side and the racing tends to always end up close. Maybe have one flexi class of the three with no minimum weight limit.

Running at least one class in the state series on a local level would be huge help as well.

Of course go with the KISS formula. Less choices on numerous parts is better. Less testing of parts helps the entry level and midpackers. It's not necessarily about the money but the time it takes to test numerous parts. Which allows more time for set-up and the all important trigger time.

It's just my opinion of course.

Flexi racing is my roots and I hope for the best for the flexi series regardless of the what direction it goes.
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#39 tonyp

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 06:12 AM

Paying back the top 3 in their mains would bring some racers back. Drag racing pays, why dont road or ovals pay?


Been there done that. All money does is kill the racing and brings out the evil in people. I walled my own team mate back in the day for $$$.

Besides it winds up with the same guys taking the money each week. The geeks figure that out pretty quickly and stop coming.


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#40 tonyp

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 06:20 AM

In drag racing the entries are for the most case way higher then flexi so the shop can afford a cash pay out and still make money.

The difference is drag racing is bracket racing. It’s all setup and reflexes, not having the latest fastest chassis and body and tires. Doesn’t matter what you have to spend, anyone can technically win. Even the guy who has to save his lunch money for entry fees.




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#41 John Streisguth

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 06:39 AM

"Besides it winds up with the same guys taking the money each week. The geeks figure that out pretty quickly and stop coming."

 

Back when Zeppelin Hobbies was actually serious about slot car racing, they had Friday night flexi NASCAR races that drew as many as 30 racers.  One of the keys to that success was they did a payout by lottery.  When you paid your entry fee, you got a raffle ticket, at the end of the night two tickets were drawn and they got the "race bucks".  


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#42 Bucky

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:05 AM

The more I think about it, stock car seems like it would be reasonable to turn into a spec class. A spec car with a sealed motor and minimum weight on the ovals really should give everyone a chance to win. It might even lure some of Ed's FCR racers over to give flexis a try.
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#43 Half Fast

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 02:09 PM

I agree with DZ in #38 and I would add a minimum body thickness (or spec body) along with a minimum weight.

 

Cheers


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#44 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 04:19 PM

Paying back the top 3 in their mains would bring some racers back. Drag racing pays, why dont road or ovals pay?

 

There are tracks around the country that are being kept open by their drag racing program.  It's not because they pay-back.  It's because instead of 15 guys representing 15 entries .... 15 guys represent 40 to 60 entries.  And, some tracks then make a little more money on allowing guys to buy back in after the first round,  Huge difference in the cash register.

 

 

 

A turnoff for me with flexi racing is the durability factor.

Chassis have become so light and fragile. It only takes one minor wreck and chassis are bent badly. I know wrecks happen and it's part of racing but it's on a whole new level compared to say ten even five years ago.

Bodies are the same way. Super thin and fragile. I get they are faster but damn they are thin. I'm considered a speed crazed moron and think it's out of hand.

It's a big factor why I race Retro on a regular. They are way more durable. I never thought I would say this but I prefer wing racing over flexi racing lately because I believe they are way more durable than flexi racing as well.

I've suggested a minimum weight limit being set that would allow a complete steel chassi being able to compete but it apparently has no interest. Maybe it's been suggeted at the Raceways and racers are against it. I just like the fact it would allow a stronger chassi for the durability factor and it wouldn't eliminate aluminium pans with the option of adding weight. A slightly heavier car for a hair easier set-up and driving factor. In Retro GTC the cars are on the heavy side and the racing tends to always end up close. Maybe have one flexi class of the three with no minimum weight limit.

Running at least one class in the state series on a local level would be huge help as well.

Of course go with the KISS formula. Less choices on numerous parts is better. Less testing of parts helps the entry level and midpackers. It's not necessarily about the money but the time it takes to test numerous parts. Which allows more time for set-up and the all important trigger time.

It's just my opinion of course.

Flexi racing is my roots and I hope for the best for the flexi series regardless of the what direction it goes.

 

It's amazing how all-out-speed takes a back seat to good racing as we grow a little older --- and wiser.  Every now and then at SCR&H we'd run an IROC-style race with the rental cars to spread the track glue around.  No prizes.  No high-dollar controllers or cars.  Just a BUNCH of laughs.

 

I think you're right about the idea of a minimum weight.  I think Marcus was talking about this 5 or 6 years ago and was shot down.  Hopefully Ed, Marcus, and Mike will listen and at least give it a try.  Set the weight minimum at whatever a steel-panned chassis car is and go from there.  Perhaps let the GTP class be the no-minimum weight class since the body provides a little extra downforce to aid in handling.

 

And, you're right about the bodies, too.  A legitimate .007 should be the minimum.  Some of the wafer-thin bodies today can rip just by the turn marshal picking up the car.  

 

Running the same classes as the state series was a BIG part of our success at SCR&H. But we had the advantage opening "fresh" and being able to choose those rules without asking racers to change what they already had.  Better watch your KISS idea .... you're getting close to advocating rules and parts lists like there was back in the old My Series days.   :)

 

 

 

Been there done that. All money does is kill the racing and brings out the evil in people. I walled my own team mate back in the day for $$$.

Besides it winds up with the same guys taking the money each week. The geeks figure that out pretty quickly and stop coming.


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At SCR&H (and in My Series) we adopted Bill Pinch's idea of paying back 40% of the purse to the whole field through a blind draw.  Winning the race just got you first draw.  You might have won $2.  You might have won $6. The payback was in Track Bucks so it meant guys usually spent a little extra on top of what they won.  AND ... some of our loyal customers who didn't really need the Track Bucks would give them to a kid who had helped turn marshal.  It's the only way I've ever seen a track payout not cause the hard feelings that otherwise come out.

 

Shoot ,,,, I think Kyle (aka JAR) walled his teammates DZ & Biscuit just for the hell of it. :)

 

 

 

The more I think about it, stock car seems like it would be reasonable to turn into a spec class. A spec car with a sealed motor and minimum weight on the ovals really should give everyone a chance to win. It might even lure some of Ed's FCR racers over to give flexis a try.

 

Aaron ... I nominate you to be the Flexi Racing "Voice of the People."  Make it happen!!


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#45 gatormark

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 07:14 AM

Not one mention of a class that would allow kids at the local track to compete.....HERES YER SIGN.
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#46 tonyp

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 07:19 AM

Not just kids, but anyone new to flexi racing.
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#47 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 08:08 AM

How about working in one race where no drivers in the race have won a regular race in say a year?


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#48 John Streisguth

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 08:53 AM

"Not one mention of a class that would allow kids at the local track to compete.....HERES YER SIGN." " Not just kids, but anyone new to flexi racing. "

 

Actually, I did...simple rules, limited choices.  Maybe for a beginner class use a lower power motor, like a Hawk 25.  Less crashing = more fun.  Everyone wants to go faster, that just increases the separation between the experienced racers and the new ones.  

At a recent Penn-Jersey race, in the "Cup" class that uses Grp 12 motors, I think about half the field didn't finish the race.  Yeah, they're fast, but the wrecks are more frequent and more destructive than the simple "truck" class that uses one chassis, and one motor that's fast enough to be fun (4002FK).


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#49 MSwiss

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:15 AM

You've been giving good advice, John.

 

The JKC21 is a great workhorse chassis, and it has morphed effortlessly, into my weekly GTP racing racing, which just used to allow "surplus" JK, all steel, all original thickness, C7 chassis.

 

Whether it's a good chassis for the serious guy, for a series, vs. weekly races, is up for debate.

 

But the C21 certainly should be the choice for anything beginner, or kid oriented.

 

And yes, if you can't turn the power down, use a sensible motor, speed wise.

 

I think the IRRA® is going strong, after 13 years, by not overpowering the cars, along with maintaining weight minimums, and .010" bodies.


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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#50 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

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  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:53 AM

No truer statement than that last sentence.  


"Whatever..."





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