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Tech inspection of JK Hawk Retro motors


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#1 DOCinCanton

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 08:29 AM

Fueled by Dale's post on timing the PSFK motor, how would a tech inspector determine if the timing of the RH motor has had its timing advanced?
 
I have looked at about 50 to 60 JK RH motors of my own. One thing that I've noticed is that if I rotate the stack so that the edge of the stack is lined up with the edge of the can hole, the slit in the comm is adjacent to the motor brush. If someone were to advance the comm, the slit would be under the brush. This is the case for all JK Hawk Retro motors if they are built to spec.
 
I bought six new Retro Hawk motors last night, I will check those out this morning.
Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
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1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion




#2 MSwiss

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 08:57 AM

I think you are worrying about nothing.

Citing being able to do something, with probably a Deathstar, and being able to do it with a Hawk Retro or other more modern motor, are two different things.

And if anyone is concerned about a motor, at a Premier IRRA® event, we have made the protest process as painless as possible.
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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#3 dalek

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 09:47 AM

Doc, I don't think the timing can be changed on a motor that has a tied comm.
 
In order to change the timing in the manner that you're suggesting (rotating the comm in relation to the stack), there has to be slack in all of the six wires that connect to the comm.  I'm pretty sure that tying the comm, removes what little slack there might have been.
 
When I first saw a comm that was tied, I thought that it was to prevent slinging a winding. However, Hawk 6 comms aren't tied and I don't recall hearing of any that have slung a winding. So, maybe the main reason that the manufacturers add the time and expense of tying the comms is to prevent the timing from changing or purposely being changed.
 
Actually, it seems possible that during the process of tying a comm, the timing might inadvertently be changed. In other words, it seems possible that you might accuse a racer of doing something that was accidently done at the factory.

#4 DOCinCanton

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 01:56 PM

Dale, good post.

I have one comment. If we could prove that the comm is advanced beyond factory spec (whether it was done by the racer or done at the factory) wouldn't the motor be illegal because it is not to factory spec?
Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
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1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#5 MSwiss

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 02:31 PM

Dan,

At races Noose techs, he takes a look at the timing.
 
That said, if say, in practice at the Sano, I had a motor knocking the bank down, I would show it to Noose and ask him if he thinks it's in spec.
 
That all said, I haven't heard of any grumbles of a crazy-fast motor since we went Hawk Retro.
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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#6 idare2bdul

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 12:18 AM

Ahhh, the nostalgia of motor modification paranoia. Pretty hard to get one of these opened up and not have it show. Most of the more recent motors don't have enough extra wire to advance the comm. If you do get it open and want to modify it, go for the dewinds or better yet make your own arm from scratch.

Alternatively do what the fast racers do, be obsessive about reducing friction. Choose the right body, chassis, and gears, and maybe learn the importance of corner exit speed vs. overdriving corner entry which will yield faster straightaway speed.
The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
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#7 dalek

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 09:09 AM

If we could prove that the comm is advanced beyond factory spec (whether it was done by the racer or done at the factory) wouldn't the motor be illegal because it is not to factory spec?


That makes sense to me.

#8 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 03:38 PM

Well fellas, 
 
This conversation has found its way to Facebook Slot Car Chat. Where a fella says that you guys are bashing Pro Slot again. 

For Mr, Dougherty, a top-notch Florida Racer was bragging how easy it is turn the timing up on Retro Hawk motors, even hand-outs. A well-known fact, even though the IRRA® guys refuse to remove their heads from the sand as well as some other places. Like a tiny bit of varnish-coated dental floss would keep people from turning the comms on a warm motor. LMAO. I want you guys to really give it some thought, when was the last time you saw a tech man take a long enough and close enough look at a motor to see if the comm had been twisted. Tell yourselves the truth on this.
 
Just for grins, one day I took a Retro Hawk apart. The comm was very easy to turn (without heating) and several more degrees of timing could be gained without breaking any wires. I then epoxied the thing back together and put it in a Retro Can-Am, this was done at the track after running the car with a stock untouched motor. The car had more torque and was quicker in the twisty stuff and much faster on the chute. The same results can be had with a good pair of forceps on an assembled motor. Like it or not, the facts are the facts.
 
Doc, you might want to take a look on Slot Car Chat, to see for yourself what one of your racers has to say. Unless you also don't care.
 
Regards,

GVP


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#9 jimht

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 04:06 PM

Cheaters will cheat.

 

On the other hand, if anyone can do something easily once they find out about it, it's a non-issue... might as well not worry about it.

 

Rules are designed to have a somewhat level playing field. They are not designed to make every race an eight-way tie.

 

You want parity, set a break-out time slower than the slowest car.


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Jim Honeycutt

 

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#10 DOCinCanton

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 04:07 PM

Greg, yeah, I don't really care.

 

However, to set the record straight, I never bashed Pro Slot and I never said it was easy to advance the timing on the JK Hawk Retro motor. I asked how effective tech could be in detecting that the timing was advanced.


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Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#11 MSwiss

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 04:33 PM

Greg,

 

Do you think any IRRA® races are won with cheater motors?

Do you think any top racers are going to risk racing a motor with the comm twisted, having it revert to slow mode in a wreck, or breaking a wire?

Or have it protested?

Like I said, I haven't heard of anyone with a crazy-fast motor, since we went HR.

The only crazy-fast motor I've witnessed, in years, was at the Legends race at CR.

I race directed while everyone kept up with this racer, with his sealed motor, up to the start of the bank, and then while everyone else's motor flattened out, his kept accelerating through the bank and exit straight, right up the Deadman.

Not a Hawk Retro, not an IRRA® racer.

PS: I've never heard of gaining torque by adding timing.


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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#12 MSwiss

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 01:10 PM

Greg, yeah, I don't really care.
 
However, to set the record straight, I never bashed Pro Slot and I never said it was easy to advance the timing on the JK Hawk Retro motor. I asked how effective tech could be in detecting that the timing was advanced.

 

Doc,

 

I missed this post yesterday.

I also don't understand why Greg referred to "Pro Slot bashing" in this thread.

It was in another thread, by another person who doesn't race Retro, who included the JK Hawk 6 in his list of motors he wasn't a fan of.

As far as "teching, easily changing timing, blah, blah, blah, blah," all that needs to be said is the pic below. Racers don't jump on a plane and fly across the ocean to races where they think they won't get a fair shake.

hk.jpg


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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#13 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 04:04 PM

Fellows,

 

I know what I know. It is fact!  Like it or not.

 

Get your heads out of the sand and look more closely at the motors is all I ask. Mike Swiss do you have any real PROOF that none of your races have no been won by a bogus motor. No you don't. Why. Because no one looked closely at the motors before or after the race.   

 

A good driver or a better chassis does not pull you by 3 or 4 feet down the chute when you come out of the lead on side by side, PERIOD!  After all you seem to be so happy that the motors are so close in performance now. How could that be???????????????? And its not tires because everyone ends up on the same tires (wonder rubber) at most races and it's not weight because everyone is within couple of grams weight wise. So how could that difference in power be.?????

 

Remember before you come up with another lame excuse.  I have built and raced real drag cars, oval cars, and road race cars and have made my living building racing engines all my life. I have even taught 8 years in College Motor Sports Programs in Engine design, Race engine Assembly, Engine and Chassis Dyno Operation. I know power to weight is what makes the difference in straight line speed and aerodynamics to some amount ( very small in slot cars all using the same bodies TI-22).  You are not going to B/S me with some more lame explanations like have been put up here. People cheat in Nascar, Drag Racing, and Road Racing to get an advantage. Compared to the cost involved in  doing the cheating, loss of money (fines) and jobs at that level of racing. Slot Racing cost of cheating and cost to the person cheating is irrelevant.    

 

JK lined up the Comm slots so it would be easy to detect if the comm had been moved. So look at it. Take the time and get the tool to look inside of the motor start measuring the motors again. Do not tell me that it is being done I have been to to many big races where it was not being done . You measure the bodies so look more closely at the motors. And don't tell me guys get motors form one person because it's his break in method because that is pure or they are faster because of they way they break in their motors B/S. I have tried every way there is to break the motors in and there was no perceivable difference except some methods being faster time wise.

 

 

As to why no one protest. I guess I don't know why. Maybe they have been told so many times that it can't be done so how could it be that someone could do it or maybe they have been told so many times that they are getting beat because they are not as good a builder or driver and they believed it.     

 

I am done on this subject.

 

 Regards and good day,

Gregory VanPeenen. 



#14 MSwiss

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 04:16 PM

A good driver or a better chassis does not pull you by 3 or 4 feet down the chute when you come out of the lead on side by side, PERIOD! 

If you feel wronged at an IRRA® event, protest the motor.

 

As the below attests to, we couldn't of made it easier.

 

We have Bill Bugenis, a highly technical, highly respected, non-partisan racer, lined up to analyze the motor.

 

PS-and if he has much harder tires than you, and the skill set to drive on tires that hard, he may very well do that.

 

 

The IRRA® Motor Protest Procedure
 
Any competitor who has raced in the same class may protest another competitor's motor. The protest MUST be filed with the race official in charge of event before the completion of the race ("main") in which the suspect motor is being raced/used. Anonymous protests will be allowed.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#15 Bucky

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 04:41 PM

You lost me at "For Mr, Dougherty, a top-notch Florida Racer..." I can't trust your opinion on anything if you believe that.


....kidding Doc
Aaron Rothstein

#16 MSwiss

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 04:50 PM

He was referring to 2 different people.

 

Doc, and an unnamed top-notch Florida racer.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#17 DOCinCanton

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 07:11 PM

Aaron, all in good fun. However, I do not consider myself a top notch Florida racer. With guys like you, Brian, DZ, Mike, Terry, Jeff, Marcus and more are better then me. I just have fun trying to keep up.


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Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#18 Marcus P1 Raceway

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 08:40 PM

Hey Doc! there are many other names that you can put on this list before mine!
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#19 Danny Zona

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 08:43 PM

Hey Doc! there are many other names that you can put on this list before mine!

A smoke screen from a known number one contender! 😁
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Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Preparation leads to separation.

Luck is the residue of design.

KELLY RACING 😎

#20 Steve Deiters

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 01:10 PM

I always think of this when discussions about how modify sealed motors comes up and drones on and on..  Why we have sealed motors and their purpose really doesn't need to be gone into...again.  We all know why.  It's to have a level playing field for all.  Some racers don't think that way.

 

Kind of sad isn't it?  It's not high rents, an evolving technology,  an aging demographic, overall costs rising, tire costs, braid costs, or any number of things. The biggest threat to what remains of commercial slot racing are the racers who want to circumvent the rules in any way possible in order to advance their own agenda.


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#21 havlicek

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 05:43 AM

Good post Steve.  I can't say that racers who cheat are the biggest threat to slots, but it is a pretty sad thing when "grownups" feel the need to cheat at a hobby for what...ego?   If people are intent on finding a way to break the rules, there will always be a way.  There are only two "solutions" as far as I can see things:

1) Doing exactly what is already being done in the tightly restricted classes.  Any more is most likely not going to help, but at least an effort is being made.  If and when someone is caught, make it known publicly.  That *should* be embarrassing enough to help deter more of the same.  There will still be ways of not really cheating, but gaining advantage, *like buying boxloads of motors to pick the cherries, but there are enough other variables involved to still not make that particular advantage necessarily result in more wins.

2) Doing exactly what is already being done in the almost unrestricted "money-is-no-object" classes of racing.  Unfortunately, having the means and ability to make, run and race almost science-fiction motors in those kinds of racing can mean more wins...but that is exactly what that stuff is about anyway, so it's all good.

In the end, the people who "get it" should still be able to enjoy the hobby no matter what.  Those who cheat, even IF their cheating "works" don't have very much to show for it.  Ultimately, they've already lost by completely missing the point of it all.


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#22 Danny Zona

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 07:23 AM

I've noticed over the year's the racers claiming that everyone cheats are usually the biggest cheaters.

Proof of it is in this thread with a pot calling the kettle black.
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Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

Preparation leads to separation.

Luck is the residue of design.

KELLY RACING 😎

#23 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 01:23 PM

A good chassis and driver will make an average motor look like a rocket. In reality its the chassis and set up that make the motor look good. The guys winning and finishing on the podium dont cheat up the motors for a few diff reasons. . The main reason is they dont have time too because the focus is on getting the chassis better. Guys that constantly complain about unfair advantage are the guys that are too lazy to work on their car or try new stuff .
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Andrew Ford

#24 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 03:55 PM

A good chassis and driver will make an average motor look like a rocket. In reality its the chassis and set up that make the motor look good. The guys winning and finishing on the podium dont cheat up the motors for a few diff reasons. . The main reason is they dont have time too because the focus is on getting the chassis better. Guys that constantly complain about unfair advantage are the guys that are too lazy to work on their car or try new stuff .

Bull ****! When you come out of the lead on side by side with someone your corning is just as good as his. When he pulls you 3 ft or more down the chute IT IS NOT his chassis or driving. It is shear POWER. PERIOD. If you pull him 3 feet down the chute and when you get to the lead on he is 3 ft ahead of you that's good driving.  Any one who knows anything about simple physics knows that. LMAO

 

Regards,

GVP


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#25 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 03:58 PM

I've noticed over the year's the racers claiming that everyone cheats are usually the biggest cheaters.

Proof of it is in this thread with a pot calling the kettle black.

This post belongs in the Joke of the Day. LMAO







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