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Direct Drive project


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#1 Alchemist

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 01:17 AM

Greetings,

 

I'm cognizant this is not a  "mainstream" project, but I wanted to share what a couple of people have inspired me to build for myself.

 

Back in the latter part of 2013, Mike Swiss introduced the "Direct Drive" Slot Car concept, which got me excited when I saw the prototype lapping around his Chicagoland track.

 

So, a couple of days later, I made the decision to design and fabricate my own version of a 1:24 scale Direct Drive Slot car.

 

Then, our illustrious motor wizard, John Havlicek got "inspired" to build his version of a Direct Drive motor employing a 3/32" armature shaft instead of the usual 2mm shaft, using a C-can motor.

 

I was fortunate enough to acquire that motor from John.

 

 

So, I would like to take this time to say "Thank you" to Mike Swiss for presenting the Direct Drive Concept, which gave me the inspiration and motivation to create my own.

 

I'd also would like to say "Thank you" to John Havlicek, for providing me with the "Direct Drive" motor which set the initial foundation of my project.

 

 

So, having come across the Direct Drive prototype chassis that I fabricated back in 2013, and fortuitously located the direct drive motor John built, I decided I would finish this prototype.

 

Here is the humble beginning, using G10 Phenolic and a cut/drilled angle bracket.  Parts are bonded using 3M VHB RP Series tape - exactly like my "Not your typical Inline Chassis Project".

DD_V1_1.jpg

 

John H's Direct Drive motor - mounted

DD_V1_2.jpg

 

 

I chose to employ the terminal connector block, that I have a fascination with (LOL) and 18 awg solid core wire.

 

The solid wire is bent and routed to the terminal block, so there is not a concern of the wire coming in contact with the armature shaft.

 

Yes, I could have just "soldered the wires" but I choose to build my cars differently.

 

Here is the chassis completed.

DD_V1_3.jpg

 

DD_V1_4.jpg

 

DD_V1_5.jpg

 

DD_V1_6.jpg

 

DD_V1_7.jpg

 

 

And it weighs in at 85.6 grams

DD_V1_7A.jpg

 

I'm glad I finally got to finish this prototype.

 

Working on Version 2 Direct Drive Chassis!

 

Thank you for taking a look.

 

Ernie


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#2 NSwanberg

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 05:16 AM

It more or less looks like a standard 16C wind which I think would be pretty hot for a drect drive car. Good luck getting it to hook up.

 

John, did you do any kind of a special wind for this project like 60 turns of 38???

 

I've always thought it would make the most sense for rentals but JB at Downriver insisted the 1/32 JK direct drive cars were too slow. Now he is trying to slow his rental cars down with the Professor Motor 25,000 rpm motor.


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#3 havlicek

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 05:33 AM

So many motors come and go that I had forgotten I did this...completely.  When Ernie said he was doing a direct drive car, I wondered what he was going to use for a motor, but thought to myself that something like 80-100 turns of #31 awg  with fairly neutral timing should be a decent starting point.  I have no idea what the wind is here or whatever other specs (magnets, air gap, commutator timing etc.) there are about the motor.  

 

 

 

It more or less looks like a standard 16C wind which I think would be pretty hot for a drect drive car

 

 

Huh?  Where's the photo showing that?  Maybe in the build thread buried in the SlotBlog archives somewhere?


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#4 brucefl

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 06:31 AM

how does it perform on the track?


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#5 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:07 AM

Since all of the 'modern' endbell hardware is designed for one rotation direction, the zero timing will allow for running the motor the opposite direction to point the hardware forward.  The other option is to reverse timing advance.  Keeping the timing advance to less than 10 - 15 degrees should keep it running cooler and smoother.

 

Pittman 85 and Ram 850/7 padlock motors with 1/8" shafts seem to work OK on 16V modern drag voltage direct drive.


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#6 Geary Carrier

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:48 AM

... :good:

 

Cool my good man.


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Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#7 Alchemist

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:17 AM

Thank you kindly Brother Geary!

 

 

Here's a lilnk to John's "inspired direct drive motor".

 

http://slotblog.net/...irect-drive-jk/

 

I have yet to test the car, but my plan is to do that in the near future.

 

Here is the discussion of the Direct Drive concept:  http://slotblog.net/...ept-discussion/

 

Thank you.

 

Ernie


Ernie Layacan

#8 Alchemist

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 01:28 PM

Now, coming back to my present day project, I had been "imagineering" a Version 2 (V2)  for months, and have now produced a final working "prototype" design platform.

 

By exploiting redundancy, it allowed me to produce a V2, V3, and a V4 Motorbox - thus allowing to run most of the mini size motors that I have;  and . . . by turning the "motorbox" 180 degrees - either way, will allow the use of either CW or CCW direction motor. 

 

 

Version 2 platform

 

I started out with an aluminum C-channel and cut a small section

DD_V2_1.jpg

 

Drilled the motor holes

DD_V2_2.jpg

DD_V2_3.jpg

 

Hand cut the motor lead/bearing pattern

DD_V2_4.jpg

 

Checking FK-130 motor fitment

DD_V2_5.jpg

DD_V2_6.jpg

DD_V2_7.jpg

 

 

Chassis pieces cut

DD_V2_8.jpg

 

I cut the chassis similar to my inline chassis, with the theory of removing more material from the middle, thus shifting more weight towards the guide flag.

 

The square piece acts as a brace but serves a couple of purposes; 

 

1.  It acts as a jig, to precisely locate the motorbox onto the chassis

2.  It braces and keeps the motorbox from the possibility of shifting, either from the torque of the wheels or impact

 

DD_V2_9.jpg

DD_V2_10.jpg

DD_V2_11.jpg

 

My initial approach to mounting the 1/8" axle wheels, was to employ 1/8" steel pop rivets

DD_V2_11A.jpg

DD_V2_11AB.jpg

 

 

I shared more info regarding pop rivet sleeves on my motor dyno thread, starting at Post #4 - if you're interested:  http://slotblog.net/...409-motor-dyno/

 

In the motor dyno thread, I stated I employed an aluminum pop rivet that had "no play at all", but using steel rivet sleeves proved to have more runout than I preferred.

 

I was able to eliminate the runout by truing the tires on the chassis but I refused to go in that direction.

 

In my search for a better alternative, I came across stainless steel capillary tubing which advertised the exact specs I required.

 

This SS tubing is axle straight!

 

Cut a couple of sleeves

DD_V2_12.jpg

 

The SS sleeves were almost a "press fit" so I used Loctite 680 retaining compound, which was recommended by a Henkel (manufacturer of Loctite products) tech.

 

DD_V2_13.jpg

DD_V2_14.jpg

 

Solid core wires

DD_V2_17.jpg

DD_V2_18.jpg

 

 

Chassis assembled

DD_V2_20.jpg

DD_V2_21.jpg

DD_V2_22.jpg

 

 

Ready for testing

DD_V2_25.jpg

DD_V2_26.jpg

DD_V2_27.jpg

 

 

Weighing in at 93.6 grams

DD_V2_28.jpg

 

Thank you.

 

Ernie


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#9 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 03:44 PM

I  tried a similar experiment in 1/32 scale using a relatively low RPM, high torque skewed armature model RR motor.  Power delivery was smooth, acceleration adequate, top speed was good but braking, important for flat track "road" courses, was almost non existent.  Perhaps it is less critical in the commercial track world.  In any event, I shall be interested in the test results.

 

EM


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#10 Alchemist

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 04:03 PM

Greetings Alan!

 

Hope all is well!

 

Would you still have that "experiment" lying around somewhere - I'd really like to see your design please?

 

 

Thank you for sharing that.

 

Ernie


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#11 Don Weaver

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 04:08 PM

Very nice, clean build with obviously lots of thought.  My only suggestion would be to use a longer guide lead dimension (between C/L of front axle and guide post).

 

Don


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#12 Jairus

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 04:18 PM

Would be fun to do a direct drive version with a planetary gear combo at one end driving the axle. 
But that would take John (my best friend, hint) to wind an arm on a hollow shaft somehow. Been a thought since 1980.


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#13 Geary Carrier

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 05:24 PM

Would be fun to do a direct drive version with a planetary gear combo at one end driving the axle. 
But that would take John (my best friend, hint) to wind an arm on a hollow shaft somehow. Been a thought since 1980.

 

Some crazy winder could do that... :)


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#14 Alchemist

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 10:53 PM

The V3 motorbox is designed to accomodate the FC-130 motors.  This motor runs CCW.

 

DD_V3_7.jpg

 

DD_V3_8.jpg

 

DD_V3_6.jpg

 

 

Weighing in at 81.7 grams

DD_V3_9.jpg

 

 

 

V4 is my last motorbox platform.   It  accommodates the ProSlot FK4002 type motor.  

 

This is the first prototype iteration and needs quite a bit of fitment tuning on the endbell side of the motorbox.

DD_V4_1.jpg

DD_V4_2.jpg

 

 

The endbell is unique (to me) in that it has a "Skeleton Keyway style" design.

DD_V4_3.jpg

 

That's it for me.

 

Thank you everyone for taking a look - time to go do some track testing.

 

Ernie


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#15 Ecurie Martini

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Posted Yesterday, 12:34 AM

I  tried a similar experiment in 1/32 scale using a relatively low RPM, high torque skewed armature model RR motor.  Power delivery was smooth, acceleration adequate, top speed was good but braking, important for flat track "road" courses, was almost non existent.  Perhaps it is less critical in the commercial track world.  In any event, I shall be interested in the test results.

 

EM

 I'll look and see - it was about 20 years ago and the pile of "it didn't work, salvage for parts"  is pretty deepThe only thing that I recall with any certainty is that the motor shaft/ wheel bore conundrum was dealt with by machined wheel inserts with 1-72 set screws to secure the shaft/axle after the inserts were set in the wheels with Locktite.

 

EM


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#16 NSwanberg

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Posted Yesterday, 03:21 AM

 

Huh?  Where's the photo showing that?  Maybe in the build thread buried in the SlotBlog archives somewhere?

 

Just going by what I can see of the stack in the last picture.


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#17 havlicek

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Posted Yesterday, 04:54 AM

 

 

Huh?  Where's the photo showing that?  Maybe in the build thread buried in the SlotBlog archives somewhere?

 

Just going by what I can see of the stack in the last picture.

 

 

Well, even with superhero vision and the ability to zoom-in by the magic of computers, that's a pretty impossible estimate to make!  :)


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#18 NSwanberg

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Posted Yesterday, 08:43 AM

It was a SWAG estimate - scientific wild *a$$ guess.


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Remember the Steube bar! (ask Raisin)
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RACEWAY!!
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#19 Martin

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Posted Yesterday, 11:18 AM

Ernie.Love your out side the box thinking here.

I would recommend adding an outrigger bearing axle support next to the wheel hub.

It will reduce the load on the motor bearings and help save the motor shaft from bending in a crash. 


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#20 MSwiss

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Posted Yesterday, 11:38 AM

It's not possible with that motor mount, unless that outrigger bearing was easily removable, which IMO, would make the alignment iffy/tricky.

 

When I suggested to Jerry the idea of a direct drive car, I brought up the motor shaft bending as a possibility.

 

He wasn't concerned, and I when asked about it later, after the car came out, he mentioned he had sold a fair amount of cars, and hadn't gotten any complaints.

 

But the cars aren't that fast.

 

That said,most Eurosports, use 2MM axles.

 

They have a bit wider support, but are much, much faster.


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#21 Martin

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Posted Yesterday, 04:13 PM

Mike, I was thinking something like these. Yes you are correct it would be 4 extra screws to remove the motor, and the chassis would need to be wider at that point. But with that much over hang, the first wall shot will finish that motor IMO

https://www.qbcbeari...ted_BallB_I.php


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#22 MSwiss

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Posted Yesterday, 04:16 PM

How do Eurosport cars seem to do OK with 2MM axles?


Mike Swiss
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#23 Martin

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Posted Yesterday, 04:34 PM

Do they have this much exposed unsupported axle over hang?

and they are drill blanks correct?


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#24 MSwiss

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Posted Yesterday, 04:45 PM

Do they have this much exposed unsupported axle over hang?

in this case, extremely close.

And again, running at Eurosports speeds.

I seriously doubt Ernie will get a direct drive car to reliably run at the same sort of speed.

20190816_163943.jpg


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#25 Martin

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Posted Yesterday, 05:28 PM

I think a fair visual would be with gear and wheels set at legal width. Your pic is misleading. 

 

Remember Ernie's axle adapters are made from SS tubing.

 

I was thinking Ernie's design was an opportunity to make something stronger. Not weaker.


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