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#26 John Streisguth

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:35 PM

In theory, the Puppy Dog should have been the perfect motor, with the quality "American made" armature. We all know how that worked out. When people are buying a hundred of them to find the fastest ones, you know they are not equal.


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#27 brnursebmt

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:52 PM

But with all three other options hardly ever being used, it seems that a new option should at least be checked out.

 

As I said, If its a POC then so be it. But what if it's not? Say if someone is buying 20 to get three decent motors, what if with this new option a racer might get six or eight maybe? Saving the racer money and making more people happy at the track. Many have left Retro because of this very problem.

 

All I'm saying is that it's worth a look.

 

And I'm so pleased that this conversation is going well. Lets continue!


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#28 Paul5097

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 02:55 PM

But to be honest, my main complaint is wanting a better motor. I buy a lot of motors myself, more than I should but it's my choice. If this motor is better it would keep people like me and many others from buying so many. No need to replace a motor so that people would get stuck with them, just make another option available.

 

In any batch of motors, there will be a small percentage that are much slower than the batch average motors. And there will be that small percentage that are much faster than the average. The racers with deep pockets will still be buying many motors looking for those faster ones. Not any different than what we have now or in the past.


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#29 Al Hernandez

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 03:15 PM

I agree, hand-out is the only way to go to keep cost down. But the fast guys will always be fast.


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#30 Danny Zona

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 03:32 PM

In theory, the puppy dog should have been the perfect motor, with the quality "american made" armature.  We all know how that worked out.  When people are buying a hundred of them to find the fastest ones, you know they are not equal.

 

I think a big problem also was the refurbish process that went on as well.

I agree if a racer buys 20 motors from $13 to $50 range some will always be better than others no matter what. No doubt!

For me it's just a bummer about the shifter/two-speed problem. I'm not looking for faster or even the possibility of buying less motors looking for and finding the magic bullet. It's just the shifter/two-speed problem for me.

I've never experienced it before until the past three years or so. Maybe a couple built motors back in the day that slowed down from heat but few and far in between.

That being said I'm a diehard and will keep racing but at times I've contemplated not racing because of the shifter problem.

I guess it's deal with it or don't race. It is what it is.

IMO, of course.


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Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯 Lap times are the only truth. Everything else is just theory.

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#31 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 04:43 PM

At the height of the original slot car movement in 1966 after the Pittman motors we had the Mabuchi can. We all started to wind our own armatures. My motors were very fast and I was able to win lots of races with them, but I had to build a lot of motors to come up with the winner. It was always a struggle. There was no way for me to buy a winning motor back then.
 
When i came back to race Retro the Puppy Dog was the motor. For many races I saw fast motors but I never had one. I finally got one good one by sending it in to be refurbed many times. That one motor won some big races and when it was dead I could never find another. I was done with them in a big way.
 
The Retro Hawk appeared and made life so much better and kept me racing. The first ones ran good and it wasn't that hard to find a raceable one. I have been struggling lately also with the  motors that run fast after one minute or slow down. This started last year. I am hoping that problem can be fixed but I will still keep trying like everyone else. In the end sometimes things work out and make it all worthwhile. 
 
I guess what i am saying here is that motors in Retro racing have been a problem since day one. In the last two year I raced back when, in 1968-70  everyone was burning up motors in every race. I barely finished one race back then.
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#32 Jay Guard

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:03 PM

I wonder if changing to a required 8 tooth pinion wouldn't solve at least some of the motor issues many feel exist with the JK Hawk Retro. It wouldn't fix the problem of some motors being faster, but it might mitigate the speed difference to a significant extent. It would certainly improve the cars braking and would reduce the running temperature of the motors which may in turn improve magnet life. It seems that for these reasons alone racers might not have to buy so many motors to "keep up."

 

It would also probably slow the cars slightly which might make the change better for some drivers and make the competition even closer than it is now. Add to the fact that this could be tried on a test basis by just applying it to say the hand-out GTC class as a test to see if the 8 tooth pinion has the desired affect.

 

I believe another Retro racing group has tried a required 8t pinion but I've not heard whether it was an improvement or not, does anyone here have any experience with it?


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#33 Cheater

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:12 PM

There are people who will spend whatever amount of money and time it takes to win.


And that exact same situation exists in every form of motor racing that has ever been: NASCAR, F1, short track, Indycar, Sprint Car, Midget, etc., etc. And the problem is not just limited to motor racing. It occurs in bicycle racing, skiing, bobsled, even America's Cup, etc., etc.

No one in any competitive arena has ever been able to remove the advantage that accrues to someone who is willing to spend whatever it takes in money or time to best all others. Well, maybe in IROC but that's about the only one I know.
 

So, along comes a motor with some pretty good claims. The brakes for 5,000 laps peaked my interest, not to mention it's a dollar cheaper! Now I know claims are just claims until proven. So with no real viable alternative to choose from why not give this motor a look?


Was the 'got to buy a lot of motors' situation any different when the Puppy Dog and other motors were allowed? What evidence is there that going to another motor will eliminate the advantage that those with 'deep pockets' have?

And why is is up to IRRA® to prove another motor is 'better'? Why should IRRA® have to change what is a very successful formula just to satisfy your desires? Why not convince the Retro racers at Talladega to invest their time and money to prove or disprove those claims? Provide some empirical evidence to support your feeling a different motor might be better and I, for one, will listen. But please don't try to convince me that a different 'medicine' might be the cure for the 'disease' unless it's been tested and has shown potential to generate that result.

 

... my main complaint is wanting a better motor.


Better than what?

Consider the top-16 qualifying results from the recent Fall Brawl.

GT Coupe Pro:

1) Jerry Herbert - 4.918 secs
...
16) Brian Cochrane - 5.195

GTC Pro time spread = 0.227 secs, avg time between racers = 0.014 secs

F1 qualifying results:

1) Jerry Herbert - 3.916 secs
...
16) Rich Thiesen - 4.076

F1 time spread = 0.160, avg time between racers = 0.010 secs

Can-Am qualifying results:

1) Duran Trujillo - 4.843 secs.
...
16) Matt Bruce - 5.052

Can-Am time spread = 0.209 secs, avg time between racers = 0.013 secs

There has never in the entire history of competitive 1/24 slot racing been a class or style of racing this consistently close. Prove me wrong...

 

Tim Neja is right: the only way to limit motor expense is to go to hand-outs and few people want that arrangement, because it removes the racer's ability to show up with a known competitive motor.


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#34 Steve Deiters

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:38 PM

Just thinking out loud here...

 

I don't mean to sidetrack the discussion, but there seems to be increased activity with flexi series picking up momentum in many areas. 

 

I think it would make sense to take a hard look at what these series are using and standardize on that motor for both Flexi and Retro. So people who compete in Flexi and Retro and would not have to have two motor programs and two sets of fingers crossed hoping they had at least a couple "fast ones."

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it is the Pro Slot 4002FK. I think they sell for $13.95. Affordable, but could use a better tamperproof seal.

 

Like I said just thinking out loud here...



#35 MSwiss

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:44 PM

The Pro Slot motor has sold for $19.25 for a fairly long time.


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#36 brnursebmt

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:55 PM

Greg, you have missed my point. And I was hoping that this discussion could remain civil. Please don't accuse me of trying to satisfy my desires and the people of Talladega have nothing to do with this. They still run the older versions of the RH. And  BTW, I hardly ever race there anymore. My question was for people who race under the unaltered IRRA® rules set.

 

If you want to call it "my desires" then let me explain again for you. The Retro Hawk has problems, everybody knows that. No need to get into all of that for the umpteenth time. All I am saying is why not give another motor a chance to see if it is a better motor in terms of getting more motors that are raceable for the racers money? What's the harm? If it's junk then let it be junk.

 

And please, lets speak to each other with some respect. Just as I am speaking to you now.


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#37 Tim Neja

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 05:59 PM

The problem with the Pro Slot motor is the appearance of an  increased ability to "tamper" with it!! There is no tamperproof seal.  Even the FK motors can be "tampered with," according to some like Hershman. But their popularity is unquestioned with the health and participation levels that Retro racing is showing.

 

Flexi cars have the same problem, the motor becomes the end-all and be-all to winning. No difference in looking for performance equality.  Yes, the same motor could be used, but flexi cars handle soo much better, that they really can handle the greater horsepower that Retro cars really don't need.

 

You're looking for a "better motor"! And it simply does not exist!! If you want to limit the expense, a hand out program is completely fair!! But, you will always be subject to the luck of the draw!! And some don't want that – I love it because I like to be competitive enough to win – but it's not the end-all to my racing. Building cars, hanging out with my racing buddies, all over hadow the need to win! I've won lots of races, and I'm comfortable with knowing I can win – I don't have to win to have a great time! It makes my racing day a lot more fun!!  :)


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#38 Tim Neja

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:02 PM

Greg, you have missed my point.  And I was hoping that this discussion could remain civil.  Please don't accuse me of trying to satisfy my desires and the people of Talladega have nothing to do with this.  They still run the older versions of the RH.  And  BTW, I hardly ever race there anymore.  My question was for people who race under the unaltered IRRA rules set.

 

If you want to call it "my desires" then let me explain again for you.  The Retro Hawk has problems, everybody knows that.  No need to get into all of that for the umpteenth time.  All I am saying is why not give another motor a chance to see if it is a better motor in terms of getting more motors that are raceable for the racers money?  What's the harm?  If its junk then let it be junk.

 

Because there are no better motors!! It's been proven over time and time again. They all have problems with variability of performance. Howie mentioned in his post – and he's been racing since the '60s!! Motors have had problem with equality, and always will be. We have to live with it!


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#39 MSwiss

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:26 PM

The Retro Hawk has problems, everybody knows that.

 

Sano 13 GTC A Main, 2-1/2 months ago.

 

Hand-outs, that never were out of the blister, from China. Four motor limit.

 

What exactly are you hoping for?

 

Better than below?

 

post-173-0-01525400-1568424638.jpg


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#40 MSwiss

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:32 PM

 I have been struggling lately also with the motors that run fast after one minute or slow down.

 

How,

 

What malady did you experience in the below race, that you had fast race lap, and lost by a few feet? :laugh2:  :laugh2:

 

post-173-0-01525400-1568424638.jpg


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#41 brnursebmt

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:48 PM

Thank you to everyone for taking time to share their viewpoints and opinions. Some good points were discussed.


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#42 Cheater

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 06:52 PM

Bobby,

 

You're missing my point, too, I think.

 

And whereas I asked some rather pointed questions of you, I don't feel I was disrespectful at all.

 

The Retro Hawk has problems, everybody knows that.

 

Since I know you've not been elected to speak for 'everybody,' I'll take that with a grain of salt.

 

I'm hearing differently from a lot of racers, from "out of 20, I got nine race motors," to "I only got one good one out of 20," to "the current Retro Hawk is the best motor we've ever had for Retro." I've spent twelve years listening to racers bitch about motors, no matter what the IRRA® motor landcape was or is, so I think I've earned the right to be a little grumpy about it.

 

As I tried to illustrate with the Q data from the Fall Brawl, the racing is the best it has ever been in the history of the hobby. Is the motor situation perfect? No, but as Tim Neja said, it has never been and will never be perfect.

 

Do you remember the R4 in 2017 used hand-out motors for Can-Am? Do you remember who won? Here's the A Main:

 

2017r4.a.main.jpg

 

My point is that it doesn't matter what the motor landscape is, the same guys will rise to the top.

What I am trying to say to you, and anyone else, is that when racing under IRRA® rules is this close year after year, the BoD would be fools to mess with the 'formula' without clear and incontrovertible evidence that any change would generate improved results. I will not support change just for the sake of change.

 

If you truly believe a different motor would bring improvment to IRRA® racing as a whole, then work to generate evidence that supports that position so as to convince other racers and the BoD of its veracity. With solid evidence of positive results and a consenus of racers wishing for change, new ideas will get a fair hearing.


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#43 Noose

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 07:54 PM

Retro East has been running under “unaltered” IRRA® rules now into our 13th year. So what’s the problem?


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#44 Half Fast

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 08:01 PM

A problem I see with the motors I believe BR is referring to is that I think there is no differentiation in appearance between the various speed motors, other than a label. This could lead to cheating with the labels.

 

Legal motors need to be physically identifiable, such as by laser engraving or can appearance, in order to prevent a tech nightmare.

 

Cheers,


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#45 John Streisguth

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 10:18 PM

Uh, aren't the current RH motors laser engraved? Or did I miss something?? :shok:


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"Whatever..."

#46 John Streisguth

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 10:20 PM

A question: are any of the other motors mentioned even commercially available anymore?  And if so, are they current production or old stock?

 

IMO, if they are not produced and available, they should be dropped.  


"Whatever..."

#47 MSwiss

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 10:27 PM

Uh, aren't the current RH motors laser engraved? Or did I miss something?? :shok:


Bill's wording is a bit confusing.
 
Bill is referring to the motors Bobby wants us to try/approve.
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#48 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 02:57 AM

Okay, the motor I ran in that GTC race was a good one. It was my second hand-out and it ran with no problem. The only malady was the guy who won. LOL.  
 
The next day I ran the same motor in Can-Am and to my surprise it had changed into a slow starter., I raced it that way and did well with it, even with eight slow laps each heat. 
 
At the Fall Brawl I broke-in about 12 motors. I had two good ones, six that would go fast after they were hot but not raceable, and four normal OK ones.
 
No matter what you race, finding the right motor is a never-ending struggle. It is part of the agony and the ecstacy.


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#49 Steve Deiters

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 06:55 AM

The Pro Slot motor has sold for $19.25 for a fairly long time.


I took a look at their catalog page before I posted. So I assume it is not current and perhaps hasn’t been for a fairly long time.
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#50 tonyp

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 09:27 AM

The Hawks have a few issues from time to time, but all cheap motors will. Right now they are the best they have been.

The new motor in question I have tested is faster than the Hawk. More magnet, more low end, and more brakes. It would obsolete all current motors in my opinion. Making this motor legal right now would cost everyone more money as they have to re-motor their arsenal and who is to say the same or possibly even worse issues won’t pop up than we have now? They are still made by little girls making $1 a day, and the cycle starts all over again.

Electric motors will never be the same motor to motor. They never have been in slot cars or R/C racing. Too many variables that effect performance. Even the brushless R/C motors which are basically a coil and a spinning magnet don’t run the same motor to motor.
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