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Simple question for IRRA® racers


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#51 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 09:46 AM

To me, the RH motors we use now are the best we've had.

There are only two ways to make it more competitive.

1) Hand-out motors. This will stop people from buying a ton of motors to get a fast one.

2) Putting a motor in that is so fast you would have to slow the car down to drive it. You cats will have to help me on what motor that would be. If every motor is faster than you need, then even a slow motor would be good. Every motor would be used, imagine that.

Now it would be all about driving and set up. Sounds to easy, what do you cats think about that?
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#52 tonyp

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 09:54 AM

Motor too fast to drive, add more lead. Problem solved. LOL.
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#53 Cheater

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:09 AM

To me, the RH motors we use now are the best we've had.


I heard this same belief from a decent number of racers at the Fall Brawl. Not everyone, mind you...
 

Putting a motor in that is so fast you would have to slow the car down to drive it.


The few times in the past I've seen this situation in place, it has not been pretty. Racers would need a certain level of judgement and skill to be able "to slow the car down to drive it." Most won't have enough of either trait.

That being said, why not convince a few like-minded people to replace the Retro Hawks in their Can-Ams with X12s and hold a race or two? I'd love to hear the results of such an experiment.

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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#54 Noose

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:18 AM

X12s are the motors in RetroPro.

How's that working out these days?
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#55 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:28 AM

It would be a thing of beauty for you guys to add a flat track anglewinder, piano and brass, PS Euro can based open class to the 2020 Fall Brawl to be run on the new 2021 Worlds track.
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#56 John Streisguth

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:32 AM

The idea of overpowering the cars has been proposed many times. The result will be a much bigger gap between the top racers and the lower echelon, and many of the mains will be crash-fests. I would look for another hobby before I became a part of that nonsense...
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#57 John Streisguth

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:36 AM

It would be a thing of beauty for you guys to add a flat track anglewinder, piano and brass, PS Euro can based open class to the 2020 Fall Brawl to be run on the new 2021 Worlds track.


That would be something to propose to Mike Iles and Mic Byrd.  As well as the people running the 2021 Worlds.  Somehow the idea of building a car that will only ever be used twice seems kinda pointless
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#58 Pat Skeggs

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:54 AM

God forbid we have to drive. Then the only thing left is hand out motors. This would cut cost down, and competition should be closer.
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#59 Danny Zona

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:59 AM

I heard this same belief from a decent number of racers at the Fall Brawl. Not everyone, mind you...


I heard different.

Most racers I heard from thought the first and second generations of the HR motors where better before the factory change.

It's not necessarily about the speed or consistency. It was mainly about the weird shifter/two-speed problem.

Even though the shifter/two-speed problem is frustrating I still show up and race.

It's what we have and it's better than not racing that's for sure.
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#60 MSwiss

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:03 PM

Pat,

Like John said, overpowering the car has been an idea floated many times. I remember doing it 20 years ago, or so, on OWH.

There seems to be so many older chassis floating around, a group of racers should load up ones they don't have an emotional attachment to, and have a race.

It might be fun, but most likely will be awful.

One of the issues is, someone who is behind early, has nothing to lose, to push too hard to try to catch up, or even worse just go out to see how fast of a lap they can turn or how big of a heat they can run.
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#61 Tim Neja

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:16 PM

The last RetroPro race we held at Buena Park was actually quite clean!! But we ran on the lower Can-Am voltage instead of turning up the power and it resulted in much cleaner racing!!

 

So, overpowering the cars I don't believe would be a viable option. It would create too much pandemonium and crashing. As long as we race with electric motors, there's going to be differences in power between them! It is what it is, if you want to race, we live with it. 

 

The only way to keep costs down is hand-outs. Another some like it, some don't. So, we live with it!!

 

Let's go racing!! :)


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She's real fine, my 409!!!

#62 Dominator

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 07:50 PM

The motors will always have a larger performance gap on higher speed tracks. Regardless if it's a $13 motor or a $300 motor, there will be performance differences based on the tracks being raced on. Tracks that are flatter and have shorter straights will see the performance levels even out. I've had mostly good hand-out motors at RetroPalooza. Fall Brawl, I have never had one go below 5.17 which is still more than a tenth off the pace. 

 

This year at the Fall Brawl I bought four. First two were OK, but not fast, low 5.2s. Third one felt really good with a lot of torque out of the turn but zero straightaway speed. The fourth was quickly discarded. On the flip side, I know there are racers who only bought one or two and did very well with them. 

 

As for racers having a "motor program," some will show up with 15-30 motors for an event. Personally I came with 10 in cars and another six. I know one heavy hitter came with four motors (five including his hand-out) and he kicked our butts! What does it mean? Sometime you get lucky and sometimes you don't. 

 

Fall Brawl for Can-Am I helped Vinny Cafazzo go from 5.2 to mid 5.0s Sunday morning simply by changing from medium Thunders to Alpha mediums. After that he went from a Parma (1043) Ti22 NN long to a Parma Lola T163. Those two quick changes made for big gains on the track. I did similar work for Jon Madtes. After his first heat we adjusted guide spacing then shortened the rear spoiler. During the move-up we trued the rear tires and adjusted the guide spacing again. After three mains he went from running 5.4 to 5.1s. Motor didn't change, just the tuning on the car.

 

Take a look at the past Retro East Enduro and the NERR Enduro. Identical chassis, tires, and bodies. Aside from some minor set-up variations the lap totals don't lie and the racing has been really good, especially with the Retro East enduro. 

 

I understand everyone wants a level playing field but the motors are for the most part consistent. If you are looking to get 10 motors and have them be within half a tenth, it's not going to happen. So unless racers want to chip in for a raceways to have more technical tracks (not necessarily a flat track) it's best to enjoy the facilities we have and hanging out together.

 

Oh yeah, don't forget to keep tuning to make sure you're getting the most out of the car before blaming the motor.


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#63 Cheater

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 08:22 PM

But, Dom, it's all about the motor, everyone says so!


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#64 Tim Neja

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:55 PM

You're absolutely right Dom, tuning is HUGE!!! One of our best racers at Bueana Park has helped me tune many times. Sam Rackam-- and he's a master at tuning. To be sure, you DO need a good motor, but simple tuning can get you a LONG way.  And Sam has been kind enough to test and PROVE that to me time and again. After a full day of tuning on my cars to get them as smooth and fast as possible, I'll be turning 4.0's on our King.  That's respectable, but not A main material.  Sam, meanwhile will be cruising in the 3.8-9 range routinely.  He's been kind enough to swap motors with me,  and MY motor in HIS car will go 3.8-9's!! And HIS motor in MY car will go 4.0's!! The cars are as near identical as we can get them, but mine is a full tenth off Sam's car, and the PROOF is in the pudding---it's SET UP.  So the motor is KEY--but if you don't hit the setup exactly, you could still be a tenth off--and as close as our racing is--that's the difference between the A and the C main!! :)  :)


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#65 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:00 PM

The turns are longer than the straight aways ? Good cars make decent motors perform ? Harder tires make speed down the straightaway and through the bank ? Here is a tip for people who worry about motors. Any speed you make at mid corner performance is also carried down the straight away and through out the entire lap.
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#66 John Streisguth

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 06:44 AM

And here's something that hasn't been addressed... some people are just faster than others as a driver! This has been shown to me in our Retro East enduros. Every team I've been on, including some as crew chief, there are people that can take the same car and go a tenth or two faster than me, even with less de-slots.

 

This is something that most people won't want to admit to... but that's the reality


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#67 Steve Deiters

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 09:49 AM

Before too much time passes, thanks to Bobby for starting this interesting thread.







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