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Two-speed motor?


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#1 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 07:46 AM

With all the two-speed RH motor talk, has anyone tried the wing car practice of keeping the motor running at low power during the lane change?

 

Everyone I know is trying to cool them down.


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#2 crazyphysicsteacher

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 08:21 AM

If you are talking about the motor getting faster as it warms during a heat there is only one cure. Mini torch.Keeps that arm nice and warm.


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#3 crazyphysicsteacher

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 08:56 AM

And before you think the torch is a joke, just ask anybody I race with.

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#4 Danny Zona

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 09:18 AM

I run them on a power supply in between heats often.

It helps a hair but not significantly.
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#5 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 09:30 AM

Are you guys sure it's not the magnets that you're heating up for better performance?
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#6 tonyp

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 09:30 AM

For me, I have found cooling them between heats is not as good as letting them stew in their own heat.
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#7 mreibman

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:10 AM

Larry Pellegrini runs his OMB motor between heats. I'm from the school of thought that heat is bad, and since I melted an endbell at the NASRA Nats, before I sent the arm up in smoke, I am sticking to that theory.

(Even though Larry is considerably faster than I am.)

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#8 DOCinCanton

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:44 AM

I stopped cooling down the RH motor between heats about three years ago.
 
BTW: To me, there are two kinds of two-speed RH motors.

The first type is a motor that is slow for the first 20 feet or so on the straight, then suddenly picks up speed. It's very noticable.

The second type is a motor that runs slow for 8, 9, or 10 laps, then runs awesome. I have had enough of both these types.

Also, these two conditions may not show up until the motor has a lot of laps on it. I don't have a clue why any of this happens.
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#9 Cap Henry

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:02 PM

I found with the ones that take 8-15 laps to get going, heating the can with like something like the iron didnt help. I think it's something in the arm/comm, and I'm not willing to put the iron on the endbell and risk melting the plastic


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#10 MSwiss

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:35 PM

Larry Pellegrini runs his OMB motor between heats. I'm from the school of thought that heat is bad, and since I melted an endbell at the NASRA Nats, before I sent the arm up in smoke, I am sticking to that theory.(Even though Larry is considerably faster than I am.)


Larry isn't trying to maintain motor heat.

The theory is, running the motor, no load, on the power supply, "cleans up the comm."

You'll have to ask him the theory about it.

I never did it when I seriously raced wing cars.

PS: Thinking about it a little more, I remember when we use to bring G7 motors, "back to life."

G7 motors have very little resistance in the windings, and most blown motors were based on the comm getting too hot, with the brushes starting to glaze over the surface.

Say if you were running on 2 ft. of choke, if you felt your motor slow, the thing to do was to quickly crank the choke up to 12 or 14 feet. On the higher choke level, the motor, that had already slowed, would be running even slower.

You would run at that choke level until the car started to pick up speed.

Then you would start to gradually go down on the choke, going to 10 feet, 8 feet, etc., and then maybe run the rest of the heat at 6 or 4 feet, not risking going back to the choke level that hurt the motor to begin with.

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#11 Danny Zona

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 12:42 PM

Larry isn't trying to maintain motor heat.
The theory is, running the motor, no load, on the power supply, "cleans up the comm".
You'll have to ask him the theory about it.
I never did it when I seriously raced wing cars.
PS - thinking about it a little more, I remember when we use to bring G7 motors, "back to life".
More to follow.


I ways always told it was to clean the comms.

I would witnesses racers squirting lighter fluid on the comm while on the power supply.
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#12 crazyphysicsteacher

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 02:46 PM

Are you guys sure it's not the magnets that you're heating up for better performance?

 
Nope, I hit the arm with the torch.
 
The magnets on some motors are not very consistent. A good zap by a strong zapper helps to smooth out some of the motors while others are just junk.

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#13 dalek

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 05:17 PM

H7 and HR two-speed and slow-when-cold issues: I've seen gearing fix them more than once so if you have the time, you might try going one tooth bigger on the pinion.
 
Can you fix a Hawk 7 with a gear change?
 
I'm still inclined to believe harmonics plays a part in these problems. I've put a problem motor in a different chassis and the motor became a good one. Go figure.


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#14 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 07:41 PM

I have not had a two-speed motor in a couple of years, but will believe the people that have said they have recently. When I did, the changing of the endbell assembly corrected the issue every time when I was doing R&D. There were a few that would do it that simply had loose brush arms that were corrected with a drop of glue. All non-IRRA® approved and never used in competition. Additionally I with another racer 1,200 miles from me swapped 10 motors that we each were having issues with. Neither of us could replicate the other's issue however we both had the same issues once we each got them back.

 

I agree with all the responses above, but most importantly that the RH is overall as solid of a platform as any other motor in its price point. I still financially see no benefit in a rebuildable platform. Dud armatures are not unheard of and there are no refunds. Finding that sweet spot arm is just as much a thing as sorting RH motors. I remember having a few cases of "OK" armatures at $40+ a pop. Waiting three months for that "special" motor builder to finally ship that "new" 16D arm. Throwing a wind, splitting of the comm are all normal issues. Different set-ups, different degrees of timing, different arm sizes all add up and are the reality with built motors.

 

I am not against built motors at all, in fact I like them. But all this talk about its cheaper and easier is nonsense. More fun would be a bigger sell to me, but that is never the argument. The argument is typically because someone is upset that so and so is a little faster and it is because of the motor. The only real secret in any form of racing is preparation. 

 

Flame on!


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#15 Bucky

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 06:27 AM

I was told early on not to cool RH motors in between heats, but recently I've had a lot of bad luck burning motors up. There seems to be a balancing act between keeping them warm enough to get up to speed quickly at the beginning of a heat, but not hot enough to burn the motor up. I haven't mastered this, and I'm starting to think my motor box is cursed. Everything that comes out of it recently is either a two speed, low on brushes and brakes, is a turd, or burns up mid race. 


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#16 Danny Zona

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 09:40 AM

My last batch of motors I ended up with 20 shifters out of 25. The 5 that didn't shift are turds.

I'm sure it's my fault though.

I probably can't tune a chassi correctly, I probably didn't try hard enough tires, I probably didn't mount my bodies correctly and last but not least it's probably my lack of driving skill that mainly contributed to the shifting problem.

It's surely my fault. No possible other reason.

Satire. 😁
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Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!! 💯

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Luck is the residue of design.

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#17 dalek

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 08:41 AM

I wonder if there's a new batch of HR's out there b/c for many months now (about the last 8 HR's I've bought), with one exception, I haven't had any bad ones (or H7's for that matter).  The one HR exception was one that became a shifter after one race.  I didn't take the time to try to sort it out -- I just replaced it and moved on.  I've been happy with the HR's and H7's I've been buying -- they've all been consistent and fast.
 
As I've mentioned before, I discovered that changing the gearing (the ratio and/or the brand and/or gear lash) often makes a bad HR or H7 good.  Regarding HR's, I've settled on gearing them to a rollout of about 3.75 (e.g., 35/13/.725).  Marcus told me that when he won the FSCS NASCAR race at Fast Eddie's, he was running a 15t pinion.  That seems to indicate that you can't over-gear an HR, that they will just shrug it off.  
 
As far as having an HR or H7 burn up, if I've ever had one burn up, it's been so long ago that I don't remember it (that means that it's been more than a week ago.  LOL).
 
Just my .02.
 

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#18 crazyphysicsteacher

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 09:57 AM

Not sure if you would call it batch or where in the bin they were.

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#19 Danny Zona

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 10:02 AM

What track was the nascar race on when Marcus used the 15t?

My guess would be the oval which is possible. We would use a 16t on my old tri-oval track.

I have doubts that a 15t in nascar on the P1 track could compete! IMO.
Test, test, test and go test some more.
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Luck is the residue of design.

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#20 dalek

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 09:04 AM

What track was the nascar race on when Marcus used the 15t?

My guess would be the oval which is possible. We would use a 16t on my old tri-oval track.

I have doubts that a 15t in nascar on the P1 track could compete! IMO.

 

Yes, it was on Fast Eddie's oval.

 

I wasn't suggesting running a 15t at P-1.  The point I was trying to make is that gearing an HR higher than typical doesn't seem to pose a risk of having it burn up, and, from my experience, the gearing change sometimes can stop, or at least significantly reduce, shifter and slow-when-cold issues, making a motor perform well enough to race.



#21 Danny Zona

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 10:16 AM

 
Yes, it was on Fast Eddie's oval.
 
I wasn't suggesting running a 15t at P-1.  The point I was trying to make is that gearing an HR higher than typical doesn't seem to pose a risk of having it burn up, and, from my experience, the gearing change sometimes can stop, or at least significantly reduce, shifter and slow-when-cold issues, making a motor perform well enough to race.

Gotcha.

But if over geared the motor would burn up, IMO.

Why not use a 16t or even a 17t on the oval then?

I've tried higher gear ratios and definitely burned up HR motors.

My point is if a 15t is used at P1 it wouldn't compete because the motor would be over geared and burn up.

I guess we have different results from past experiences. 😉
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Test, test, test and go test some more.
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Luck is the residue of design.

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#22 Shooter7mustang

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 11:49 AM

My last batch of motors I ended up with 20 shifters out of 25. The 5 that didn't shift are turds.

I'm sure it's my fault though.

I probably can't tune a chassi correctly, I probably didn't try hard enough tires, I probably didn't mount my bodies correctly and last but not least it's probably my lack of driving skill that mainly contributed to the shifting problem.

It's surely my fault. No possible other reason.

Satire. the first step to recovery is recognizing you have a problem, looks like you are on the way  :laugh2:


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