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PS4002FK or better choice?


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#1 NorCalJim

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 10:07 PM

Since this is my first post, I should introduce myself (you can skip to the 4th paragraph for my question).  I am a multi-scale racer whose 1/24 scale enjoyment started in 1962 and lasted until the last commercial raceway near me closed in 1974.  A late 90s internet search revealed that slot cars were not extinct as I had supposed.  Fast forwarding to the present, I am retired and have some back and knee issues that wouldn't hold up to turn marshal duties or 3-4 hours of racing.  

 

The good news is that I am about 20 minutes from Fast Track Hobbies in Rocklin and since I am retired have no trouble getting time on their flat track (Yellow Dragon) when everyone else is at work or in school.  I have a friend who is interested in racing in NorCal's GT/Hawk class and we both decided to put together a competitive car and work on getting competitive lap times (at least mid 5 seconds).  I purchased a car that Justin Colvin put together so we know what a competitive car is like and what we would need to emulate.  My friend hit 5.96 last time out (Justin won the NorCal 12/7 GT/Hawk race and had a fast lap time of 4.8 seconds).  After the initial shock of how far we need to go to be competitive, I thought that I need to see the kind of driving that nets this fast of lap.  Watching my friend's 5.96 second time, It's becoming clear that the key to faster lap times on this flat track is fast acceleration and HARD BRAKING (good segue to my attraction to the PS4002FK and interest in a renewable version).

 

In my last visit to FTH, I met a gentleman who started with slot cars in 1965 and is just returning to the hobby.  He was running a JK X-25 powered by a PS4002FK and sporting an LMP body.  He was casually making laps and having multiple offs (a clear indication that he was unfamiliar with the track).  He was using Third Eye FET controller (didn't see model but he mention a mid $500 price that he paid).  I mention the controller because Third Eye FET controllers have excellent brakes.  After making some adjustments, this fellow stopped coming off.  His times started in the high 7 second range, moved to the high 6 second range, the to low 6's, high 5's and then consistent 5.3 seconds.  Meanwhile, I was calling out the times while witnessing better brakes than any of my Flexi motors.  My take-away was that the brakes were the huge difference-maker for the low lap times.  Naturally, I couldn't wait to research the PS4002FK (read every post I could find on Slot Blog including numerous concerns about the reliability of the off-shore armatures, narrow commutator, brush modifications needed and push starts--not what I expected!).

 

I was amazed at the PS4002FK's performance, especially the exceptional braking!  I want that performance but I am not interested in the problems mentioned frequently in Slot Blog threads about this motor.  Does this motor still have these problems or have they been resolved?  There is no current NorCal class that runs this motor but someone mentioned to my friend that FTH may have a Flexi class that will use the PS4002FK.  If that is true, I will be putting a PS4002FK (or similar renewable motor) car together immediately following our GT/Hawk project.  Since I will be running my car against my friend's car while he prepares for the race class, I would want the same performance in a rebuildable motor (no need for a sealed motor if I am not racing).  I can't tell if the PS4002 is a rebuildable version of the FK or whether it is equipped with ceramic magnets.  Any ideas on a rebuildable alternative to the PS4002FK?


Jim Person




#2 team burrito

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 10:22 PM

my recipe is a ceramic hawk 6 with a big dog armature, copper brush hoods & ball bearings. we use these motors on friday nights at motown & they're very fast on the hillclimb. power is good & very driveable. pm me if you want me to build you one. if you plan to race at FTH, find out what they're running & we can put one together for you. the warm-up race at FTH is on the 24, 25 or 26; come to the track & i can put one together on site.


Russ Toy (not Troy)
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#3 NorCalJim

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 11:07 PM

Hi, Russ!

 

I'm familiar with your Team Burrito handle from your posts through the years on OWH.  I appreciate your kind offer to build a Hawk 6 with a BD armature but a huge portion of my fun would be building and renewing my own motors.

 

I am curious about the Hawk 6 platform with white end bell.  Comparing it visually to photos of the Hawk M3 (JK3031), the cans and white end bells appear to be identical.  I'm wondering if the difference between the Hawk (M3) and Hawk 6 is the armature and magnets with the Hawk (M3) having a hotter off-shore armature and ceramic magnets vs Hawk 6 tamer off-shore armature and Poly Neo magnets).  If I could get away with not giving up too much braking capability, I would prefer ceramic magnets.

 

I will probably check out some of the warm-up racing but won't be racing (too much bending takes its toll on my back).  

 

Jim


Jim Person

#4 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 12:03 AM

Third eye brakes available here
http://slotblog.net/...et-controllers/
David Parrotta

#5 team burrito

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:13 AM

the neo magnets are way too much brakes; the ceramics make it much easier to drive. i find the white endbell is much better than the stock endbell & the copper brush hoods fit tighter around the brushes. the koford conductive springs would be a good choice as well. if you come to the warm-up races, we can put one together on the bench.


Russ Toy (not Troy)
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#6 Pablo

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 03:15 AM

If there was ever a motor that cooks almost every time you race, it's the PS 4002FK. Avoid it if possible. You can treat it as carefully as possible, straighten the hoods, install the best (legal) parts, break it in with TLC, set it up perfectly, and it will still fail. Not every time, but almost every time.

 

The PS 4002B is a very reliable motor.


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#7 dalek

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 06:42 AM

If there was ever a motor that cooks almost every time you race, it's the PS 4002FK. Avoid it if possible. You can treat it as carefully as possible, straighten the hoods, install the best (legal) parts, break it in with TLC, set it up perfectly, and it will still fail. Not every time, but almost every time.

 

 

I'm not a big fan of the PS4002FK (b/c of the variance in performance from one to the next) but it is the required motor in the GTP car class at P-1 Raceway where I race weekly.  P-1 has a 13.8v power supply and a truck battery in parallel to smooth it out.

 

The GTP cars are heavy (C-21 chassis) and have a fair amount of drag (GTP body) but rarely does anyone's motor fail.  I believe the key to survival is the gearing.  The package recommends a roll out ratio of 4.25 to 4.50.  

 

If I set up my car with .750 tires and 36t spur and 11t pinion, the roll out ratio (aka: final drive ratio) will be 4.36 and the motor will survive for many races.  The roll out formula is 36/11/.75=4.36.

But if the pinion is 12t, the roll out will be 4.00 (taller gearing than recommended) and the motor will run hotter.  When I tried a 12t one time, between heats I could smell that the motor was running hotter.

 

I have a good 4002FK and have raced it, I'm sure, over a dozen times and the heats are 3 minutes.  I replaced the brushes once so far.  I've run practice and raced it so many times that the shaft has some side play.  I'm just hoping that when I can no longer race it that I find another one that's as good.



#8 John Streisguth

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 06:44 AM

Sorry, have to disagree about the life span of the 4002FK.  I have a couple of motors that have run more than a full season of racing.  Only one has ever gone "tits up", and that was one that was over 5 years old.   

But Russ is correct, the 4002FK has way too much brake, I typically dial OUT brakes running them.  You could also look at the "Scorpian" motor; I was talking to one of the top racers around here, he said he had one that ran over 12 hours in an enduro and was still a competitive motor.  Since it's got a american made arm, you can cut it and rebuild the motor.  


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#9 mppicione

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 08:42 AM

You may want to consider asking racers if they have any used PS FK's that were very fast for them but have slowed down perhaps because they need rebuild.

This doesn't mean you will end up with fast ones but if you are going to open and rebuild them it is something I would try.

I agree with post #7 if track power is not too high and gearing not too aggressive these motors run cool enough to last a long time.

That being said there are some that for some reason ( not known to me ) just run hot and will not last.


Marc Picione

#10 John Streisguth

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 09:43 AM

On the subject of brakes and controllers, when I had my Difalco updated to the Genesis brake system, I noticed a marked difference in braking on the retro hawk motors I typically run. 


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#11 dalek

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:00 AM

On the subject of brakes and controllers, when I had my Difalco updated to the Genesis brake system, I noticed a marked difference in braking on the retro hawk motors I typically run. 

 

The Difalco Genesis has a brake relay so when it's activated (using the switch) the brakes are about as good as it gets (almost no resistance in the brake circuit). 
 
Some people say that a Hitman has better brakes but, FWIW, I've tried a Hitman a few times and couldn't tell any difference.


#12 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 10:32 AM

Hi Jim,

 

You are fortunate to have FTH to call your home raceway. Honestly between Justin and Chris Crofts, equipment and advise wise you are in the best of hands.


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#13 NorCalJim

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:18 AM

Wow!  Great info, guys--thanks!

 

Russ, for the copper brush hoods, are they the ones that come with JK's white end bell or are they after-market (if so, what company)?  Thanks!

 

Dale, thanks for the roll-out formula.  I have been consulting ProSlot's chart/app.  Also, many thanks for 11/36 example!

 

For those using the PS4002FK, any successfully using stock brushes?

 

Controllers...I was one of Howard's tester's when he developed his HO controllers.  He knew that I was a Difalco guy since at the time, I had 4 Fanatic HO controllers and 2 1/24 Difalco controllers.  I loved the FTB feature of the Pro controller and used Third Eye controllers for my away races while sticking with my Difalco for races that I hosted.  Since I am still ramping up for 1/24, I had been using my Difalco DD-532 (an HO controller that supports network chips for sensitivity).  I have no problem using the HO network controller for 1/24 with appropriate network chip as long as I don't try to adjust brakes and keep them on full.  I also have a 15 band Difalco E-Motion 2 controller with Pro Brakes that I have been loaning to my friend.  For Christmas, I received a DD-271 Difalco and I have only had it out once (forgetting to use the ESP by-pass) but noticing that it still had very good braking capability.

 

Once again, many thanks for the comments & info!

 

Jim


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#14 Dave Buchholz

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 12:32 PM

Are you talking of the sealed motors, the blue taped Ps2002fk, and the red sealed 4007?

Why start with a sealed motor if it is not a sealed class? There are other choices.

If it is a sealed class, opening it disqualifies it from use anyway.

#15 Fast Freddie

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:19 PM

I've run this motor geared 12/42 72P with .750 tires with no problems.  I have run this motor geared 11/36  64P with .720 tires and no problem.  I have seen pictures of these motors geared 11/33 64P and I would be guessing  a .700 tire.  I have found the 2 biggest problems I have with the PS4002FK motors is the endbell bushing and the magnets too deep in the can causing the arm to press hard against the can bushing.  I have also used the stock brushes and springs with no problems but I have switched over to the PS G7 hard brush with PS red springs.  There is an episode of Between the Lanes on You Tube I think it's #2 or #3 with the new owner of Proslot talking a little about these motors.  If you have to run a sealed motor I would suggest you use Super Glue to retain the endbell bushing, use a brand new tube of Super Glue because it flows the best.  I use a body pin to put small drops of the glue around the bush/endbell groove.  The glue will seep in between the bushing and endbell.  If your motor has an arm that tends to lay against the can bushing make sure you oil both the inside and outside of the bushing. If your allowed to blueprint the motor then I would do it.


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#16 NorCalJim

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:19 PM

Are you talking of the sealed motors, the blue taped Ps2002fk, and the red sealed 4007?

Why start with a sealed motor if it is not a sealed class? There are other choices.

If it is a sealed class, opening it disqualifies it from use anyway.

 

Dave, I am looking at an alternative to the sealed, blue-taped PS4002FK.  I like the PS4002FK's performance but want a rebuildable motor.  There is a good chance that the PS4002FK will be the specified motor for an upcoming race class that my friend would want to enter.  I would want to join him in putting together a competitive car and work to get competitive times on the local flat track. Since I would not be racing in that class, I want a rebuildable alternative to the PS4002FK (similar performance but not sealed).

 

Jim


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#17 NorCalJim

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:21 PM

I've run this motor geared 12/42 72P with .750 tires with no problems.  I have run this motor geared 11/36  64P with .720 tires and no problem.  I have seen pictures of these motors geared 11/33 64P and I would be guessing  a .700 tire.  I have found the 2 biggest problems I have with the PS4002FK motors is the endbell bushing and the magnets too deep in the can causing the arm to press hard against the can bushing.  I have also used the stock brushes and springs with no problems but I have switched over to the PS G7 hard brush with PS red springs.  There is an episode of Between the Lanes on You Tube I think it's #2 or #3 with the new owner of Proslot talking a little about these motors.

 

Fred, thanks for the Between the Lanes episode tip.  I'll check it out.

 

Jim


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#18 Highnoon

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 01:29 PM

If you like the proslot fk just take the seal off. I would go with the scorpion 4007 as a platform for rebuildable, American arm, bigger com. Proslot stock brushes and springs work fine on anything under 13.8 voltage. Seen no performance advantage moving to Koford. The blue seal fk has more brakes and punch, the Scorpion is smoother. I would go with the scorpion.


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#19 Pablo

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 06:33 PM

Another thing you may consider is, after the PS4002B fell out of favor for IRRA® racing, a lot of guys, myself included, ended up with a lot of them. Especially the guys who were buying loads of them and cherry picking them. So there are lots of them available for a song.


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#20 NorCalJim

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Posted 16 January 2020 - 11:56 PM

Another thing you may consider is, after the PS4002B fell out of favor for IRRA® racing, a lot of guys, myself included, ended up with a lot of them. Especially the guys who were buying loads of them and cherry picking them. So there are lots of them available for a song.

 

I had to smile when I saw your post since many of us have ramped up for a race class only to see the specifications change.  It's no fun when it happens and it is a credit to you to think of your acquisitions benefiting others.  

 

The rebuildable mini can motors do fascinate me and I plan to look further into both the PD & BD (Hawk/BD suggested by Russ Toy) options.  Since I learned today that my friend will be entering a February one-off race with hand-out motors, tires & body, I will be focussing on helping him get ready and postponing my mini can motor quest.


Jim Person

#21 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 02:24 PM

Sorry, have to disagree about the life span of the 4002FK.  I have a couple of motors that have run more than a full season of racing.  Only one has ever gone "tits up", and that was one that was over 5 years old.   

But Russ is correct, the 4002FK has way too much brake, I typically dial OUT brakes running them.  You could also look at the "Scorpian" motor; I was talking to one of the top racers around here, he said he had one that ran over 12 hours in an enduro and was still a competitive motor.  Since it's got a american made arm, you can cut it and rebuild the motor.  

John,

 

Scorpian motors are sealed just like the 4002FK. So cutting the comm is not an option unless your rules allow you to run with no seals or you cheat .They also have five more winds then the 4002FK. 

 

Regards,

Greg VanPeenen



#22 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 04:33 PM

I think the only difference between the Scorpion and the FK is that the Scorpion is an American made arm. The number of winds should be the same. Both arms seem to run similar lap times. I allow both arms in my Gaithersburg 1100 race; next scheduled for 6 June 2020.
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#23 MSwiss

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 05:06 PM

Definitely not the same number of turns.

If I remember correctly, John Miller did a bunch of testing, to match the speed with the motors.

Five turns more with the American arm is what worked out.

You have to remember they are on a different blank, also.
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#24 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 05:16 PM

Thanks, Mike...
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#25 Dave Buchholz

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 05:45 PM

Proslot website lists five more turns on the 4007. Better stack that's ground is obvious when side by side.





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