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Brushless slot car technology


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#1 Bags

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 09:55 PM

Hi guys my name is Bags

 

I have something to share with you. I have been testing brushless motor technology for 3 years now. Recently I made a trip to Trains and Lanes in Easton, PA, to test a brushless motor in a road course car.

 

This is a video of our very first attempt. The mule worked pretty good as you can see. The performance was nothing less than impressive to say the least. We used a three-wire 4 ohm controller with the brake wire hooked up. The car has brakes just like a brushed motor (Hawk motor). The motor we used was 3600kv and it did not even get warm the controller didn’t either. So I say this test was a success. 

 

I have a thread in the drag forum if you would like to look at that.

 

Feel free to ask any questions.

 

Enjoy.

 


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#2 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:12 PM

Thanks for posting, and starting a new thread for your road racing experimentation.

What does the motor and switch weigh?

Mike Swiss
 
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#3 Bill from NH

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 11:14 PM

The car looked like it drove easily in the video, on both tracks. i'm not sure what i'd compare it to, but if running in a field of like motors, it would have adequate speed to be fun. Do you recall how you had it geared in the video?


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#4 Bags

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 12:07 AM

Mike it weighs 60 grams with the wires at full length, they can be shortened for your application. The weight is not a problem at all. These motors are made to move 2 1/2 pound surface vehicles. 
 

Bill the mule is a 4 1/2 jk flexie from years ago, bushing 1/8 axel ,full hub .875 fish  48 pitch  10 x 35 


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Tom Bagley

#5 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 12:12 AM

The issue isn't moving the 60 grams.

It's having the car handle with a motor and switch that is more than twice the weight of a brushed motor, along with it's much higher CG.
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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#6 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 07:32 AM

Tom said the runs were done with a 4 ohm controller. I assume that means a resistor type controller.

 

I wonder how it would work with the various electronic controller types. Would it work with PWM?

 

It is great to see it run on a road type track.


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#7 Bags

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 07:41 AM

The issue isn't moving the 60 grams.

It's having the car handle with a motor and switch that is more than twice the weight of a brushed motor, along with it's much higher CG.

 

Mike 

I don’t think the extra weight has a negative effect on the way it handles, it seems like it sticks to the track pretty good. Keep in mind that we assembled that pile of parts in about 15 minutes, just to see if it would “ go around “ the track. I spoke with Jay, he has tuned it a little more with good results. We will get some lap times in the near future and I will post the progress that we make for all to see here on the Blog. 
 

Thank you for the comments.

 

Tom


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#8 Bags

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 07:58 AM

Tom said the runs were done with a 4 ohm controller. I assume that means a resistor type controller.

 

I wonder how it would work with the various electronic controller types. Would it work with PWM?

 

It is great to see it run on a road type track.

 
Eddie 

Yes it was a Koford 4ohm resistor controller. We did try it with an adjustable type controller, it did have an effect on braking that we could dial in a little. I’m not really versed in the roundy world ( drag racer ) what is a PWM ? I don’t know if a blast relay would have any effect on it, I don’t think the setup needs “ blast “ per say......then again we didn’t test that either so I don’t have an answer.

 

Tom


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#9 Metalflake King

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 08:49 AM

Very neat Bags.  Brushless motors have changed the world of RC for years now.  Would you care to share a wiring schematic on how you hooked up that three pole motor to run on straight DC?  As far as motor size there are lots of different ones that are smaller.  It looks like you have a Castle Creations motor in there, that motor has tons of power.


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#10 Phil Hackett

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 12:14 PM

 
Eddie 

Yes it was a Koford 4ohm resistor controller. We did try it with an adjustable type controller, it did have an effect on braking that we could dial in a little. I’m not really versed in the roundy world ( drag racer ) what is a PWM ? I don’t know if a blast relay would have any effect on it, I don’t think the setup needs “ blast “ per say......then again we didn’t test that either so I don’t have an answer.

 

Tom

 

PWM = Pulsed Width Modulation. The electronics manipulate the DC current into short or long pulses of DC (it's not AC!) according to the power/speed required by the, in this case, motor. 


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#11 Bags

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 12:14 PM

Hi Max 

 

The motor is wired to the switch just like an ESC in an r/c application. BUT it is an ESC that has been flashed over wiped clean and new programming installed so it can be used in this application. 
 

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the comment.

 

Tom


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#12 Bags

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 12:57 PM

 

PWM = Pulsed Width Modulation. The electronics manipulate the DC current into short or long pulses of DC (it's not AC!) according to the power/speed required by the, in this case, motor. 

Hi Phil 

 

Thanks for your interest. 
The PWM is untested at this point. I don’t have one to test it on.
It works well with the Koford 4ohm.

 

Tom


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#13 KFXGuy

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 10:03 PM

Nice to see this is starting to catch on.

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#14 WestJL218

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 07:59 PM

A new era begins !!!


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#15 Chubby

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Posted 09 April 2020 - 12:47 AM

this car does not handle well
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#16 crazyphysicsteacher

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Posted 09 April 2020 - 07:45 AM

Great, now a new step to send the cost thru the roof like in rc.
This is a big step forward, yes. Kudos to the guy who did this.
But, this step would mean that you now have the ability to program the car and make lots of adjustments. They complain now about 3rd eye controllers, just wait. Plus, what does the esc cost? Motor?
I don't mean to poo poo this but the whole setup doubles the weight of many cars.

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#17 Dallas Racer

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Posted 09 April 2020 - 11:03 AM

Tom gets cudos for making it work, but like Joe said, the car doesn't and never will handle well. It's cool but not nearly as good as a normal slot car, and it appears that Tom has abandoned the project.


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#18 Rob King

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Posted 19 April 2020 - 12:39 PM

That motor is giant.  Kyosho MiniZ cars have brushless technology in a more appropriate size.  Not sure about how to handle the control, though.

 

https://blog.rcmart....speeds-mbw2019/


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#19 Bags

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 10:56 AM

Hello again fellas! 
I haven’t given up on the project, we have the virus situation going on at the moment. The tracks are shutdown so it’s kinda hard to test and tune now. 
 

The switch can not be adjusted at all for those with that concern. It’s set and will remain that way, the plug has been removed so no tampering can be done to it. 
 

If that motor is 110 watt brushless sensorless  it will work with the switch. What size is the arm shaft 2mm ? 
 

Chubby I agree totally not setup at all. Didn’t have front tires on it, guide flag was too tight , body was hitting the track too !

we just wanted to see if the brushless motor would work on a road course. That’s what the video was made of.

 

Thank you for your interest.

 

Tom


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#20 Dallas Racer

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 12:33 PM

Tom, it really has no potential to work on a road course anywhere near as well as current slot cars. It's way too heavy and has way too high of a center of gravity. I take it you're a drag guy and may not be familiar with road course slots. Weight and CG are hugely important and greatly effect cornering performance.

 

I think your project's greatest potential is on the drag strip.


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#21 Jay Guard

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 06:11 PM

Phil:

I totally disagree with what your are saying about the brushless motors.  Although they may well have good potential on the Drag Strip I see great potential on a road course or a banked tracked,  Apparently there are smaller brushless motors that will help to lower the CG and improve handling, but that's not really the point.  I mean, Retro cars don't handle nearly as well as Flexis but we run those, and Flexis don't handle nearly as well as Wing cars but we run those.  With your reasoning we should all just be running Wing Cars.

 

I see a totally new class, just like Retro cars were to Flexis.  OK they don't handle quite as well (yet) but it's a whole new class.  And maybe, just maybe, it will totally eliminate the motor wars.  I'm not familiar enough with brushless motors to know their individual characteristics but what if they turned out to all be exactly the same speed due to the programming.  Now you buy one motor, the exact same as the other guy, and go racing.  No more having to buy ten motors to find one good one, sounds like a win to me.

 

I say Go For It Tom!


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#22 MSwiss

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 06:39 PM

Jay,

I seem to remember someone saying not all brushless motors are created equal.

 

IOW, motors of the same specs do vary.

 

Most likely Tony.

 

If you are interested, inquire with him.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#23 tonyp

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 06:58 PM

Brushless motors vary just liked brushed motors do. It’s still made with wire and magnets so there will be variations.


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#24 MSwiss

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 07:24 PM

Tony,

Disappointing Jay Guard sounds like another tax you'll have to pay Cheater on your next chassis sale. :laugh2:


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#25 tonyp

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 07:24 PM

Lol.


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