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Selectable Throttle Curve vs Traction Control


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#1 dalek

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 06:18 AM

Does anyone know if the Selectable Throttle Curve set by dip switches on Third Eye controllers do the same thing as Traction Control on Difalco Genesis 2 controllers?





#2 Jay Guard

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 08:37 AM

Dale:

 

I believe the DIP switches soften the response on the entire range.  The more switches that are in the up position the more it softens the response.


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#3 Fast Freddie

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 11:52 AM

I would say that if your controller has an E-Choke and a FTB you could get a similar result by playing with the choke in tandem with the dip switches.  You'll still get full throttle with the FTB on and more control when your off full throttle.  I've tried it and it's workable for me.  I've never used a controller with traction control so it would be nice if someone could make a comparason and let all of us know the results.


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#4 dalek

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 04:59 PM

Thanks for the replies.
 
From your descriptions, and the description that Jim Difalco posted in another thread regarding Traction Control, it sounds like the two controllers are doing about the same thing -- softening the response.  
 
I assume that softer response means that any given amount of trigger travel doesn't change the voltage to the car as much.  I assume that it also means that at some point, when you get towards the end of the trigger throw, the voltage to the car will have to change more dramatically.  Hmmmmm.
 
I suppose softer response could be handy if you have a situation where some extra finesse would be beneficial, especially like when driving a retro stock car. 

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#5 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 03:01 AM

…and coming off a corner and not resisting the 'punch it' reflex...


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#6 tonyp

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 06:48 AM

I’ve been using the traction control on my Difalco quite a lot lately, especially on stock cars and when A car doesn’t quite hook up off the corners. I’m my opinion it seems to effect the bottom of the powerband making it smoother with out effecting the rest of the power band.

I have had best results using just a little bit may 20%. For someone like me who has pretty much lost most driving skills it will get me a .10 with my stock car. It makes it easier to control the car.
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#7 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 09:03 PM

Tony, what chip are you using ?
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#8 tonyp

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 05:55 AM

I use his “California” chip. Not sure of the number, I’ll have to check. It’s the same one I have always used. It’s non linear to start out with. All the other ones I tried come on too fast for me. This one gives me more room for mistake with a slower finger. Never been a punch and brake driver.


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#9 dalek

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 11:49 AM

Friday I was at P-1 Raceway and had access to a Hitman and a Genesis 2 controller.  I hadn't previously realized that there's a basic difference in the controllers in that the Hitman delivers power to the car as soon as the trigger begins to move (immediately when it comes off of the brake contact), whereas the Genesis 2 doesn't deliver power until after about 1/8" trigger pull (measured at the tip of the trigger).
 
When you look at racing results over the years, there doesn't seem to be any indication that racers using Difalco controllers, are at any disadvantage.  IOW, the 1/8" trigger pull isn't a disadvantage (it's just what you get used to), but, it might be a reason that I seem to deslot more when I've tried a Hitman during practice.  Difalco's are the only controllers I've owned.  
 
Anyway, back to last Friday.  Using my power supply and a 7.5 Ohm resistor as a load, I did some testing in order to compare the voltage output curves of the Hitman and Genesis 2 controllers, with and without "Selectable Throttle Curve" (via DIP switches) and "Traction Control" (via rheostat) enabled.  By putting the voltage output values into a spreadsheet, I can create line graphs, making comparisons easy.
 
Getting values from the Genesis 2 was no problem.  By using a jumper wire, I could touch each of the 30 points on the resistor network (it's a 30 band controller).  However, the Hitman was more challenging to get values so I decided to try to only get values at about 25%, 50% and 75% trigger positions.
 
I just reviewed my findings and have decided to test again (in the next couple of weeks) but with a setup that's more repeatable and accurate.  When I tested the Hitman I used temporary marks and now believe that they weren't where they needed to be.
 
I'll post the line graphs when I get them done.
 


#10 tonyp

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 11:57 AM

I checked my California chip but there is no marking on it. Probably because I believe it was the first one Jim made for me patterned on the feel of my Mistress Heather controller


"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#11 dalek

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 12:15 PM

There's a couple of ways to find out what resistor network you have.

 

1) Use an ohm meter, one probe on pin #1 and the other on pin #30.

 

2) Or look at the color bands on one of the resistors and plug them into a calculator such as 

https://www.digikey....lor-code-4-band

then multiply the value times 29 (there are 29 resistors in a network).

 

I just plugged in the bands of one of my networks in the calculator above. 

The bands are green, brown, gold, gold. 

The calculator said the resistor is 5.1 ohms. 

Multiplying by 29 gives 147.9.  So it's a 148 ohm network.



#12 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 12:47 PM

Custom networks are probably not all 29 resistors of the same value.

 

You can buy one of Jim's custom network kits and make most anything you want just by plugging in different resistors.


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#13 dalek

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 12:57 PM

Good point.
 
A quick scan of the resistors will tell. 
And the first two bands are probably the only ones that would need to be looked at since the third band is a multiplier and would change the value up or down by a factor of 10 or more.

#14 tonyp

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 07:14 AM

The California module is dd264.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#15 dalek

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 07:21 AM

DifalcoOnline.com says:  

 

DD264: Custom Resistor Network. West Coast Network. Specially selected resistance values for Retro, Scale, and 1/32 racing gives a flatter response over the first 20 controller bands. This lets the racer drive in the middle of the bands and negotiate difficult and twisty track sections with ease. 191 total ohms when set up as suggested. Excellent for Retro or 1/32 scale.



#16 Dallas Racer

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 11:34 AM

I have one of the newer resistor network Difalco's, but I use to have a 10 band with ajustable bands. I had all the bands turned down as low as they would go. A slow response helps me with my crappy full-on, full-off driving style.


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#17 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 11:44 AM

I always confuse myself with the 'non-linear curve'  adjustments.  Jim has a range of linear chips that work for me.  The standard network 180 ohm does most for me.  The '191 cali chip' uses many of the same resistors.  The traction control should soften the low end in a similar, but adjustable way.


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#18 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 08:15 PM

Thanks !
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#19 dalek

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 08:17 AM

I always confuse myself with the 'non-linear curve'  adjustments.  Jim has a range of linear chips that work for me.  The standard network 180 ohm does most for me.  The '191 cali chip' uses many of the same resistors.  The traction control should soften the low end in a similar, but adjustable way.

 

As you can see in the chart, Traction Control doesn't soften the response only in the lower bands -- it softens it on all 30 bands (blue line).
 
The chart shows:  
-- track power supply is 12 volts
-- sensitivity adjustment is set to output 4 volts to the car when the wiper button is on the 1st band (need to readjust as TC is increased)
 
Note:  the 31st band in the chart is when the blast relay pulls in.
___Controllers Output Graphs_Difalco G2.gif

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#20 tonyp

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 08:56 AM

When I use the traction control on the Difalco the response feels the same to Drive the car just hooks up better.
Now if you turn the TC up a lot then the controller feels funky.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#21 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 09:27 AM

That chart does a good job illustrating why third eye sells so many controllers.
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#22 Half Fast

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 11:48 AM

The Third Eye Hitman manual states:

 

The 4 position Dip Switches

A cluster of 4 slide switches located on the side of the handle is the Throttle Curve Switches. Setting a switch in the up position softens the bottom portion of the throttle curve. The switches effects are additive, they all have the same weight and be set in any order, with all 4 switch up has 4 times the effect.

 

Thus it operates differently than the DiFalco

 

Cheers


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#23 dalek

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 02:09 PM

That chart does a good job illustrating why third eye sells so many controllers.

 

Since the chart doesn't show the Hitman output curve, I assume your reply is based on the Genesis 2's sudden increase in voltage when TC is enabled and the blast relay pulls in.  I assume you believe that it will increase the number of de-slots.  All I know is, a couple of months ago, before I had any idea what TC did, I tried a G2 with TC full on and the car wasn't de-slotting.
 
For one thing, I still want to see the Hitman output curve (with and without STC).  I've been giving it some thought and believe I've come up with a way to get 30 readings, in equal increments, across the full trigger throw.  I'll try the next time I have access to a Hitman and have time.
 
If it turns out that the Hitman has a progressive power curve when STC is on (softer-than-normal response in the first half of the trigger pull but steeper-than-normal in the last half) I can see where, under some conditions, it might actually cause the car to be more difficult to control smoothly and contribute to more de-slots than the Genesis 2's linear TC.
 
I guess the proof is in the driving.


#24 Rob Voska

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 04:04 PM

If you could get your hands on a Carsteen................  it would be appreciated. :)



#25 dalek

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 08:11 AM

If you could get your hands on a Carsteen................  it would be appreciated. :)

 

Maybe...

 

I just made a couple of quick searches and found that the least expensive model, that has an adjustable voltage curve feature, is the CS-2.  I saw it priced at $450. 

 

Like the Hitman, the CS-2 uses 4 DIP switches.  On the controller, the switches are labeled "Profile".







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