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Selectable throttle curve vs. traction control


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#26 Danny Zona

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 08:45 AM

 
Maybe...
 
I just made a couple of quick searches and found that the least expensive model, that has an adjustable voltage curve feature, is the CS-2.  I saw it priced at $450. 
 
Like the Hitman, the CS-2 uses 4 DIP switches.  On the controller, the switches are labeled "Profile".

Ralph and I were laughing about his Carsteen last night at P1. Not about if it has a problem but when it has a problem good luck on sending it out to get it fixed. At least in his experience and others I know.

I'm sure Ralph would let you try it Dale if you wanted to.
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#27 Phil Smith

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 01:49 PM

Carsteen controllers are covered in detail in the pdf manual and switch profiles linked at the bottom of this page.

 

http://eshop.slot-ra...ontroller-CS2-0

 

Anyone have a Kobis controller?

 

http://eshop.slot-ra...s/0/5/207-Kobis


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#28 dalek

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 08:00 AM

Yesterday, using my Genesis (not Genesis 2), I tested how load effects the controller's output curve.

 

The resistor loads I've been trying have been 15 ohm and 7.5 ohm.  I've also tried combinations of one and two 12 volt 25 watt bulbs.  I've decided, in order to get the most accurate output curve, I need to use motors as the load (no real surprise there).  I have a motor test stand so I'll be giving that a try when I have time.

 

There's something else about Difalco controllers that I'd like to have a better understanding of.  That is, the effects of changing the resistor network. 

 

For example, I can race a car that has a PS4002FK motor, using a 148 ohm network with Sensitivity set at 6 or with a 78 network set at 3.  The car will feel a little different, but not so much that it's obvious as to which network to use.  If I can know how the output curve is affected, maybe it will help with the decision.



#29 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 08:30 AM

Standard networks have 29 equal steps from start to full power. If you use the sensitivity to adjust the start point to be the same with different networks you then have 29 even steps to full power with the 78 or 148 ohm or any standard network. I don't see as much difference in networks as they get billing for. That is why I have gone to custom networks that allow me to change the response curve. (Your mileage may differ.) 

 

I have not tried a traction control controller and that may be the way to go. but it still looks like 29 steps to full power and then the blast relay. 

 

I have been playing with a soft curve on the lower 2/3 and a rapid increase at the high end, but I am thinking my next experiment will be a quick response on the lower speed and a long slower response on the upper 2/3 of the control. In that way it may tend to tame the sudden kick coming out of the corners.

 

On the other hand I probably should just drive better, but I like fiddling with this stuff. 


Eddie Fleming

#30 dalek

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 09:06 AM

 

... I am thinking my next experiment will be a quick response on the lower speed and a long slower response on the upper 2/3 of the control.

 

 

I went to the Carsteen link in post #27.  The 4 switches that modify the "Profile" allow you to set the output to 3 levels of exponential (using switches 2,3,&4), but also, like your description above, reverse exponential (using switch 1).
 
Here's the link to the Profile pdf file, which is a graph:  
 
FWIW, based on the testing I've done so far using resistors and light bulbs as load (but not motors, yet), the Difalco has a naturally exponential output rather than perfectly linear.  In addition, that exponential output seems to be more pronounced when the Sensitivity has to be set higher (e.g., using a 148 network at 6 instead of 78 at 3).
 
I'm thinking that maybe some transistors naturally have an exponential output.

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#31 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 09:15 AM

Here's the link to the Profile pdf file, which is a graph:  

I saw that too and it reinforced what I was thinking.

 

 You are probably correct about the response not being truly linear but doing no bench analysis I tend to think in the obvious reference to the numbers. But still in practical use I don't see the difference in networks being as big as expected if you use the sensitivity adjustment to set the start point.


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#32 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 09:44 AM

Some time ago a fine racer I know told me he set the sensitivity to 0 and if he wanted to go faster he pulled the trigger further. With that in mind if you pick a setting and use that as a standard then changing the resistor networks can make a big difference.

 

I would suggest that the best way to adjust your controller would be to pick a spot for your standard sensitivity setting then change networks to find one you like at that setting. After that use the adjustment to fine tune to your driving.

 

On the other hand the standard network should be just great unless you are at one end of the sensitivity adjustment and it is not enough. then you go to the next resistor module. Whatever works for you. 

 

I remember when I had two controllers a 2 ohm and a 4 ohm and no adjustments on anything. Things were simpler then.


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#33 Danny Zona

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:28 PM

It is cool to see the graphs on how the power works, theories and etc.

For me it's if the lap times are faster or not.

KISS.
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Test, test, test and go test some more.
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Preparation leads to separation.

Success is never owned but rented and rent is due everyday.

KELLY RACING 😎

#34 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 02:19 PM

For me it's if the lap times are faster or not.

KISS.

True Danny but you got to have or borrow some ideas of what to test to see if it is faster. 


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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 02:59 PM

For example, I can race a car that has a PS4002FK motor, using a 148 ohm network with Sensitivity set at 6 or with a 78 network set at 3.  The car will feel a little different, but not so much that it's obvious as to which network to use.  If I can know how the output curve is affected, maybe it will help with the decision.

Eddie,

Danny can correct me, if I'm wrong, but I think he's responding specifically to the above statement.

 

IOW, he'll let the timer decide for him, not a graph showing how the controller reacts on the test bench.
 


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#36 dalek

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 06:24 AM

True Danny but you got to have or borrow some ideas of what to test to see if it is faster. 

 

"Good call, Garth."


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#37 dalek

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 06:28 AM

Eddie,

Danny can correct me, if I'm wrong, but I think he's responding specifically to the above statement.

 

IOW, he'll let the timer decide for him, not a graph showing how the controller reacts on the test bench.
 

 

Danny's post is in line with my post #23 in which I say that gotboosted's theory of Difalco's Traction Control being inferior (based on a graph), might not be correct.  I finished that post with the same point that Danny made -- "the proof is in the driving".



#38 Bucky

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 07:25 AM

Dale, I'm looking at the chart you made, and the output for each band continues along a straight line. Is this not what we define as "linear" in referencing controller power? It's just a label, but I'm hoping to understand your results vs. my own perception in using different controllers.
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#39 dalek

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 08:05 AM

The values used in the graph are perfectly linear but didn't come from actual testing.  The graph was only to show that when Traction Control is active, the output from all bands is affected, not just the first bands like a poster was assuming.  
 
I still plan to tinker around with testing controllers and graphing the outputs (it'll keep me off the streets and out of the bars). 
I'll use the motor test stand I made quite awhile back.  Pictures of it are posted at:  
 
 

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#40 smichslot

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 12:33 PM

Actual testing will probably show some more relevant data. Especially when a predictable load of the controller is used.

 

Fact is that controllers with exchangeable resistor-chip has a sort of built-in choke that reacts to the actual load on the controller.

 

Since the power-transistor used has a finite current gain (can be x25 or x50 at the current pulled by the motor (5A, 10 or maybe 15A or more), the current through the resistors on the chip can be anything from 0,1A to 0,6A with the numbers that I have used, which are just examples. 

 

Clearly the profile of the trigger response will to some extent be be influenced by this, which for sure is not a bad thing. In fact, this is why some of the chip-controllers are held in high esteem by many racers. They can make driving a high-power flat-track car easier.

 

Mind you, though, that this testing will not tell you exactly which chip to use driving XX-car on YY-track. Racers will have to do some tests, and decided for themselves.

In which case it might be easier to use a controller where everything can be adjusted while you drive.

 

Steen


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#41 Greg Erskine

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 04:16 PM

Just a point about linearity. Even if the "resistor set" used is linear, the output from the transistor almost certainly isn't.

 

I would also guess a slot motor also doesn't respond linearly to voltage.


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#42 Mark Onofri

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 03:10 PM

So much for my parma external .7 ohm controler & 100'(10' increments)beer can choke ! Maybe I'll go back to college. Better yet, I'll just move up from stick it to bog.

#43 John Luongo

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 03:33 PM

gentlemen, a VERY interesting discussion topic. we have come a long way from pure resistor controllers and for that matter, diode controllers. the newer controller products offer many more adjustments to help the racer make the best lap time. i remember a local race where the race winner used 4 different resistor controllers depending on which lane he was running on during the race. an excellent driver, he won the race going away. he no doubt got the most performance out of his car on each lane. further, this was a hand out motor race with a gear rule. not done very often any more. i suspect he could have used one of the newer controllers and made his adjustments without resorting to changing controllers. best regards



#44 old & gray

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 04:06 PM

gentlemen, a VERY interesting discussion topic. we have come a long way from pure resistor controllers and for that matter, diode controllers. the newer controller products offer many more adjustments to help the racer make the best lap time. i remember a local race where the race winner used 4 different resistor controllers depending on which lane he was running on during the race. an excellent driver, he won the race going away. he no doubt got the most performance out of his car on each lane. further, this was a hand out motor race with a gear rule. not done very often any more. i suspect he could have used one of the newer controllers and made his adjustments without resorting to changing controllers. best regards

 

D. P. at Modelville?


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#45 Bill from NH

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 05:25 PM

John, was this at one of the Al Stevens races?


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#46 John Luongo

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 06:48 PM

yes it was. great event. my son and i looked forward to going there every year.



#47 Bill from NH

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Posted 15 July 2021 - 10:41 PM

I raced weekly slot cars at the Framingham MVH location with AL & his son Ken in the '70s. Ken currently races retros out of Houston.


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