45 replies to this topic

[TSR]

Vintage enthusiast Rod Morrison posted something on our Brit and Swiss friends' SlotForum that intrigued me:

 

I am looking for a Champion Group 20 chassis which has the plumber on the drop arm, and which also has a cut out in the drop arm. This is the same chassis that Bob Hallums and Barry Magee used to come 1st and 2nd at the 1st Tottenham Group 20 Open in May of 1971.

 
My response was of course that the NCC-legal Champion frame for Group 20, also sold by other companies, had no such "plumber" arrangement. Turns out that Rob was right and indeed the Brits got smarter than the Yanks and used the better multi-rail Champion chassis as well as the Riggen unit for their G20 racing. I envy them as we were stuck with the horrid Champion piles. To sort this out and help Rob, I posted the following pictures:

First, this is what a REAL Champion Group 20 chassis looks like:



Much rarer are these "Group 22" chassis (left), similar to the G20 but with some variation.



Detail of the chassis, showing no "plumber"...



Now THIS is the chassis used in that British Group 20 race. Not legal but in fact a much better chassis...



This picture shows four Champion arms. The legal Group 20 is at the bottom right.



This is a complete Champion RTR using the same frame. It uses a Group 15 motor derived from the old 517 can now in black and using the Orange Picker end bell with the ugly bearing plate.



Champion also sold (in the USA only) the Group 20 car as a kit:



The kit has the NCC-legal chassis:



I hope that this clears the misunderstanding and I still do not understand why Champion in the UK did not follow NCC Group 20 rules... maybe some who attended this race can tell us?

All items property of the LASCM. Pictures copyright Electric Dreams 2008.

[rodslot53]

Phillipe,

Thank you and all the other guys for all the information you have unearthed on the Group 20 chassis.

I have received the chassis from Derek Cooper, and on closer inspection the only difference with this chassis is the up-stop for the plumber, which is a L-shaped piece of piano wire soldered to the top of the drop arm pivot tube (not very well), whereas your photo appears to show a straight piece of wire mounted across the pivot. I have had a closer look at the chassis photos in the Model Cars article, and both appear to have the L-shaped stop, possibly this was just for the British market?

Having never raced or prepared this type of car at the time, were racers adjusting the mounting bracket to allow the motor sit as low as possible, or was that not allowed under the regulations. At the present moment the motor sits well up which certainly cannot help the handling of the cars.

As to the body fitted to Bob's car, this was a Lancer Porsche. I was racing down at the Fylde club in Blackpool at the weekend and asked Andy Brown-Searle of ABSlotsport if he knew anything about them, but drew a blank. Are these being reproduced now by anyone? Also, were these racers just cutting up Lexan sheet to make up the spoilers, or were these available over the counter pre-cut?

Sorry for all the questions, but being a young Highlander whose only access to slot car information at the time was Model Cars magazine and my visit to Elgin Slot Car Club every 3/4 months, weather permitting. What was happening in the south of England and in the States was light years away from what I was able to experience at that time. It all seemed very exciting. Just a great pity I was never able to get to London to experience the King track at Tottenham.

Rod

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

This is the sort of thing I normally jump on. Ran local pro, but also poached a bit on the lesser classes. What I saw in my area is that no one was able to get the Champion 20 to run well or win the race.

Locally, they allowed 20s or 12s or 15s to run with the stock 20s. Personally, I was running a "888" in the class which, despite the single hinge, was a much better chassis.

First time I saw a Champion 20 run well was in Denver in '77, where the track owner was allowing a friend to run against the novices with Parma Group 18s. But I have told that story.

Over the years, I have aquired a couple, but I don't think I ever tried it.

Fate

[TSR]

On closer inspection the only difference with this chassis is the up-stop for the plumber, which is a L-shaped piece of piano wire soldered to the top of the drop arm pivot tube (not very well), whereas your photo appears to show a straight piece of wire mounted across the pivot. I have had a closer look at the chassis photos in the Model Cars article, and both appear to have the L-shaped stop, possibly this was just for the British market?

 

Hard to tell until you show a picture of what you have...

 

As to the body fitted to Bob's car, this was a Lancer Porsche. Are these being reproduced now by anyone?

 

Depends on WHICH Lancer Porsche we are talking about. If it is the unrealistic wedgie thing we pros used in 1972-73, that one is being reproduced by O/S but under another name, "Honda" or something equally silly.



It works very well and I loved that body except that it looks like crap.

If we are talking REAL Porsche, Lancer made a 908 Roadster and a 908 coupe that fit the period. Maybe Tom Anderson makes those.

[John Secchi]

Bob run a real Porsche???
[oneofwos]

[dc-65x]

I posted the Champion ads below about NCC40 and NCC22 in the history section but I thought if I brought back this great thread that PdL did it might jog some memories:
 

I came across this Champion ad in the 3/70 issue of Car Model magazine:



Can anyone tell me about this "new class of racing"? Specifically, what motors were used? Were they just NCC20 motors in a plumber frame? I thought that was NCC-22 class like this ad from the same CM magazine issue???

 
Does anyone remember anything about Group 40???

[SlotStox#53]

Doesn't help much or at all, but in England my Dad had a "Group 20" car using the Riggen nickle-plated chassis that Pablo is fixing up in his thread. It came with a worked over Group 20 with the "A" can I think and a NCC20 tagged arm. He got it from Tottenham Model Raceways as a complete car.
 
This was sold as legal for Group 20 races, although doesn't shed light on the Group 40 races/cars but may add to the story?
 
-Paul

[dc-65x]

Hi Paul,
 
I just finished reading a photocopy of Model Cars Magazine's August 1971 race report of the Tottenham's Group 20 Open race. Cool stuff. Lots of Champion #294 frames pictured above and a few of the Riggen (or Mura as they were called) like yours.
 
So it looks like the #294 started out to be a chassis for Group 40 racing but ended up as a Group 15 racer in the US but was used as a Group 20 in the UK. But what was Group 40 supposed to be?

jimht remembers it as this:
 

I have vague memories of Mura producing a machine wound 26 gauge arm with a "40" tag but it never developed as a separate class with spec chassis.

 
Anyone else have any memories of Group 40?

[n.elmholt]

Sorry to intervene, but does anyone have the brass motor mount shown in the first and last pics for sale - I could usethree pieces for some Champion chassis projects??
 
Niels, DK

[don.siegel]

Niels, 

 

I may have something like that, but will have to look further... 

 

For the moment, I found something called the Semi Winder Bracket by Russkit, No. 796:30, but it's a bracket that also has an axle hole in it, so either for a sidewinder or meant to be bent... 

 

I'll keep looking. 

 

Don 

[Old pink can guy]

The Dokk can answer this.

The first chassis were Group 20 I think. Made by Parma. Made from aluminum. One wall shot and say goodbye!

Your help please, Dokk. I correct my self group 12.

[SlotStox#53]

Hi Paul,
 
I just finished reading a photocopy of Model Cars Magazine's August 1971 race report of the Tottenham's Group 20 Open race. Cool stuff. Lots of Champion #294 frames pictured above and a few of the Riggen (or Mura as they were called) like yours.
 
So it looks like the #294 started out to be a chassis for Group 40 racing but ended up as a Group 15 racer in the US but was used as a Group 20 in the UK. But what was Group 40 supposed to be?

jimht remembers it as this:
  
Anyone else have any memories of Group 40? :unknw:S

Seems like the only leads at the moment are the advert you have Rick and the memories of jimht for this Group 40 series!

 

At least you can say the group 20 situation is pretty much covered ! Is there any champion guys or people in charge that used to think up all these group rules/cars that we can ask??

 

The Tottenham races and track sure sounded cool as you say Rick Only ever saw the track once when it had moved to Wonderland raceway in Southend back in the day.

[dc-65x]

Seems like the only leads at the moment are the advert you have Rick and the memories of jimht for this Group 40 series!

 

I have to admit I'm really surprised at how little info has come forward on this. Usually vintage slot racing history questions get lots of responses from racers who were there

[SlotStox#53]

Have definitely seen most if not "all" questions regarding slot racing history answered fairly easily & quickly.

Maybe this was a series created right when the industry & racing ceased? Hence never getting off the starting grid perhaps?

[dc-65x]

I don't know Paul. That Champion ad is from 1970.........

[SlotStox#53]

I don't know Paul. That Champion ad is from 1970.........

 

Oh well... There's got to be answers then some where!   wish I could help but the UK didn't go beyond group 20 really and Dad stopped racing around then anyway.

[Steve Deiters]

I can't answer the "Group 40" mystery other than it might be a typo. 

 

The original GR. 20 was orginally based on a chassis that was offered by Champion.  It was a brass style chrome plated unit with "bat wings (as they were refered to at the time).  After the NCC standardized on this chassis and a spec motor from Mura they were offered to other manufacturers who could offer their own kits and/or RTR's.  I believe there was only one big NCC Gr. 20 race that was won by John Cukrus who I believe found the cars as being...how should I phrase it...not much. 

 

When the Gr. 20 class didn't take off they decised to expand the rules and allow a "Gr. 22" where manufacturers could use their own chassis which I believe allowed bat pans and plumber set up which was the state of the art at the time.  The plumberized version of the frame was one of the first manifestations of it.  They came out with others as seen in the #294 frame was well as Riggen had their own.  I believe they were all sourced from the same Pacific Rim company, but I'll defer to PDL on that. 

 

All in all the cars were underpowered and the chassis heavy.  It was a great concept, but it just didn't catch on although I think the retro pro racing for today is about as close the what Gr. 22 wanted to be as you will find.  It just took 30 plus years to catch on.

[TSR]

Steve,

The difference with today's Retro Pro cars and the Champion chassis manufactured by AYK Aoyagi in Japan, is that the RP cars do not fold like accordions when they hit the wall...

And the Champion G20 chassis did that, either the original brass version or the later steel plate version, both nickel plated.

[dc-65x]

It looks like the NCC-40 will either go down in history as forgotten mystery or just a typo in a 1970 Champion ad.

 

If I may quote Adam Savage from Mythbusters, "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

 

I'm going with "jmht" and his "machine wound 26 gauge arm with a "40" tag".

 

[Gator Bob]

For Champion Slot Racing Products - Group 40 was 26 AWG in the CEE can set-up.

 

Came as a RTR in the 'Desperado Series' with a car called "Renegade" in 1979. 

 

Coupe' O/S body

 

 

Champion/Bolink  - #128

Motor - # 5926 - 26w, Wht Dot mags, SS shaft - $17.95

Catalog Price - $36.95 (most expensive car on price list)

 

BTW:

The arm is not list as Group 40 .. just 26w as part # 5926A

The Mura and Checkpoint price sheets from 1979 do not list Group 40 ... but of course both list 26w arms.

[dc-65x]

BINGO!

 

Thanks Bob, I was looking for info in 1970 like the Champion ad I posted.  Sure enough there it is in my 1977 Champion Catalog:

 

 

So I can only "ASSume" that the 1970 version was supposed to use the #294 chassis and a #26 wire arm like Jim remembered but in a 16D setup.

[SlotStox#53]

Cool So the mystery of Group 40 can be laid to rest    Now we need for someone to have one of those cars from the

Desperado series.

[Bill from NH]

Paul, do you have any photos of your slotstox cars from the days when you used to race with the Wellgate Club?

[SlotStox#53]

Paul, do you have any photos of your slotstox cars from the days when you used to race with the Wellgate Club?

Yes I do Bill , just one picture from my last car built languishing at my parents home in England.

Well battered from the "contact" nature of the 1:1 & model racing. have pm'd you the picture as I didn't know if it was ok

to post it here in this thread

[dc-65x]

I'm sure we'd all love to see the picture Paul