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JK Indy car motor swap


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#26 Pablo

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 03:24 PM

Might as well do a complete teardown and cleanup: 

 

-Axle, spur, and spacers removed, cleaned. Axle polished and checked for straightness

 

-Hawk 7 comes out, gets a quick scrub and goes into the parts boneyard, since the brushes are almost completely gone

 

-Motor attachment points cleaned up with Soder-Wick

 

-Front wheels checked for legality

 

-Bite bar removed, sanded clean, and straightness checked

 

-Pan and center section checked for flatness and cleaned

 

-Bushings and uprights checked for perfect alignment

 

IMG_5546.JPG

 

After all those bad crashes running into Shriner's Parade vehicles, no damage found  :laugh2:

Next step: let's test this motor to see what kind of power it has before deciding on a target gear ratio ……..


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#27 Pablo

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 05:20 PM

Motor test: I oiled the can end BB (brush end bushing is sealed, it cannot be lubed) and fed 'er 3 volts. Draws .27 amps, and stayed steady, no increase or decrease of amps. That tells me there isn't a lot of (break-in) changes going on. 

 

Smooth, tame, and dead cool. Bumped 'er up to 4V. Still smooth, tame, and cool, no increase/decrease in amps. So I'm thinking a long break-in isn't needed. I let her spin at 4V for 5 mins, then gave a Monty Ohren lighter fluid bath for 10 seconds and stopped. Break in done.

 

After the fluid dried, I spun the beast up again at 4 V and used my meaty educated fingers to assess the power characteristics. By no means is this scientific, nor is it something you can rely on your motor being the same, or even similar. Here is my impression:

 

Low horsepower and very high torque. It runs dead cool, even when I almost stalled it. That tells me it can run a big pinion. Billy already said it can run a 15/34 with .730 wheels, and stays cool, with good brakes. I think it can handle more pinion, until we start getting it warm and the brakes become an issue.

 

Polarity needs to be reversed; in other words, red dot is negative. Switching wires and listening to the difference in rotation, to my sensitive ears, sounds like the timing is almost totally neutral. But I sense it runs a red hair happier with red positive. If I'm correct, the motor is wrong timing for a left hand anglewinder. But the difference is very slight. It's so close to neutral, it will run fine either way. 

 

Now here comes the bad news, Rotorranch, I feel your pain. Now that I look at the parts in place, I see the only way this motor will fit in this chassis in to have it angled way up over this ridge right here which I darkened with a Sharpie:

 

IMG_5548.JPG

 

IMG_5550.JPG

 

No gear combination in the world will change the fact the motor has to ride above that ridge. The rules disallow "modifying" the chassis in any way. The mounting bracket on left side isn't the problem. It's the ridge on the right side.

 

Billy's photos don't show it but the motor is jacked way up on the right side. So, the question for me personally is, do I want to race a class where the motor doesn't fit?

 

Or maybe there is a secret decoder ring I didn't get?  :D  I'll take a time out and shuttup. I'm not always right. But if I am right, a simple change of the rules to allow shaving that ridge down may solve the problem.


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#28 Rotorranch

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 05:43 PM

It does fit, but only at an extreme angle. And you need to "snap it in place" into the chassis. You can get it to "snap" down between the ridge and the bite bar mount, and it gives me a sweet gear mesh.

 

Rotor


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#29 Pablo

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 06:20 PM

OK Jeff, I see that, and agree. But the only way Billy could possibly have his aligning the way he did, is if the motor sits atop the ridge. Which kinks the motor up on the right side at a very odd tilt.

 

So we have a choice of an extremely acute angle where we have to force the motor in place at an weird angle to the motor mounting bracket, or tilting the right hand side of the motor upwards to clear the ridge. Either way, I ain't happy.

 

Even if Billy allows us to shave the ridge down, we just ruined a perfectly good JK chassis to satisfy a rule change designed to slow the cars down.

 

Am I missing something here? 


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#30 Rotorranch

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 07:02 PM

Totally agree. But rules are rules. I'm gonna race mine as is. 🤔

 

Rotor


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Jeff Chambers

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#31 Pablo

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 08:06 PM

Cool, Jeff. Uncharted territory. We have time to resolve this, one way or the other. It will all come out in the wash  :)  I have lots of faith in Billy, and whatever he says, I will follow.

 

Billy always wants to attract new players, but a class where the motor doesn't fit properly won't get the job done. 


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#32 Pablo

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 08:33 AM

OK racers, my prayers have been answered. Billy sent me a PM this morning:

 

"As soon as I saw your post about fitting the hemi, I ran to the
track, in the pouring rain , un soldered the motor and there it was
a ground off chassis brace, So it looks a rules change for the JK
new chassis. Spread the word."

 

:laugh2:  And you laughed when I mentioned there must be a secret decoder ring. Well there it is. We forgive and still love you, Billy :good:  :D

 

So I have been given permission to announce a JK Indy Cup verbal rules change, effective 4/23/2020. Billy can word it however he wants, but here is what I recommend:

 

"Removing material from the ridge on the right hand side of the motor box area of the JK Indy chassis (the area in the photo darkened by a Sharpie) to allow the Hemi 500 motor to sit flat is legal. Additional bracing of the chassis in this area to compensate for any loss of strength is legal. This change is for the JK Indy class only and is effective immediately as of 4/23/2020"

 

IMG_5548.JPG

 

Billy Watson, Supreme Commander of The Dungeon, approved this message

 

msg-1512-0-12889900-1586186861.jpg


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#33 Tim Neja

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 09:24 AM

Seems really silly to go through all those headaches when there are PLENTY of cheap slower motors exactly the same size as the Hawk!!   :dash2:


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She's real fine, my 409!!!

#34 Pablo

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 09:39 AM

Re-read posts #8 and #10.


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#35 Pablo

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 02:48 PM

The area that needs to be removed

 

IMG_5558.JPG

 

Trimming more than this isn't going to be legal. Not that you would want to anyway  :)

 

IMG_5560.JPG

 

Now the motor can sit flat

 

IMG_5565.JPG

 

I'll bet Rotor is grinding his teeth as he plugs in his iron. I know I would be muttering under my breath as well. I didn't invent this rodeo, I'm a casualty of it as well


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#36 Pablo

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 09:50 PM

Now the motor sits flat, and allows me to play with gears to see what does, and doesn't, fit

 

IMG_5568.JPG

 

15/35 looks like a piece of cake

 

IMG_5567.JPG

 

I'm going to order a 16 ARP drag gear. My thinking is as follows:

 

- Billy tested it successfully at 15/34, it ran cool and still had plenty of brakes

 

- Pablo's toothbrush handout FK motor theory 101 says "Increase pinion teeth one tooth at a time until you either start to lose brakes, or cook a motor, then back off one tooth". The Dungeon track loves big pinions

 

- If I over gear it and cook it, what have I lost? $5  :laugh2:  :crazy:

 

- If my choice is wrong and the car is a Shriner's Parader or a :bomb:  all I can say is, it's not your money, your wife, or your life. Nobody gets hurt unless you laugh too hard  :sun_bespectacled:


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#37 swodem

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 02:20 AM

I just finished a build of one of these chassis that we run with a F1 body on a flat track, powered by PS4002FK
They're not THAT bad as a class
Geared 11:36

291dd77d7c575b497656e418f94ee308.jpg




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#38 Kim Lander

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 07:00 AM

Looks like  (to me) that the motor is going to put more weight to the right side of the chassis and is going to play with your handling....maybe a little lead to counter it...the chassis are made so the motor is inside its paramiters, looks like fun though....Kim



#39 bluecars

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 09:27 AM

Pablo; I too would have liked to try different pinions but was told it would be strictly one motor per racer. Do I risk not having a motor to race with if things go wrong? 


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#40 Pablo

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Posted 24 April 2020 - 10:01 AM

You'd have to ask The Supreme Commander, I don't make the rules. If you want my opinion, here it is:

 

- I wouldn't worry about it too much, he has more of them

 

- If you wanna play it safe, use 15/34, it's been tested and it works

 

- If you wanna walk on the wild side, just follow my lead. I ain't scared to cook a $5 motor and I ain't scared of losing. I already ruined a perfectly good JK chassis, what do I have to lose? :crazy:  :hi:  


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#41 Rotorranch

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 03:00 PM

I'll bet Rotor is grinding his teeth as he plugs in his iron. I know I would be muttering under my breath as well. I didn't invent this rodeo, I'm a casualty of it as well

 

I'm not going to mess with mine yet. I want to see how it works as is. The gear mesh is really nice right now.

 

Rotor


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#42 Pablo

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 03:34 PM

Cool. It may even be better than mine. I remember winning a flexi race in Nashville with my motor canted way forward. So having the motor sit as close to the rear axle isn't automatically always the best way. If it sucks at the track, Billy has a grinder and a hot iron :)  


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Paul Wolcott


#43 Rotorranch

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Posted 25 April 2020 - 04:47 PM

I only wish I knew that a month ago.🤣😉


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#44 Pablo

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 02:54 PM

16T pinion arrived today. Shaft trimmed, scored, tinned, and phenolic washer installed to protect the BB. Gear thingie trimmed almost flush

 

IMG_5637.JPG

 

Holy cow, a 16 won't fit through the motor mount hole. I guess this chassis wasn't made for this type motor  :shok:  :laugh2:  I'll just have to install the pinion with the motor already through the hole  :laugh2:  The Dungeon rules don't allow hogging out that shaft/gear hole … yet.... hint hint Billy …….  :)

 

IMG_5639.JPG

 

I know after all this heat and acid the motor will need a bath afterwards, so I might as well tin the wire tabs with acid. That way I can install wires later with just paste flux

 

IMG_5643.JPG

 

Motor is now attached in 3 places, and the way I did it more than compensates for the removal of the ridge I sliced off - motor can is now a stressed member of the motor box area

 

IMG_5644.JPG

 

I may cook the motor with too tall gears, but if somebody knocks a motor out it ain't gonna be me  :sarcastic_hand:  :laugh2:  :crazy:

 

 


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#45 Rotorranch

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 03:04 PM

If you recall, Billy said that the motor mount is allowed to be opened up for gear clearance. I sent you an email about it, I think. 🤔

 

Rotor


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#46 Pablo

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 03:14 PM

I do not recall that. Please show me, because if my 16 works well, it's going to become an issue. A 15 fits and a 16 doesn't.  :)


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#47 Pablo

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 10:41 PM

16/36 gears. Boy what a sweet mesh  :D

 

IMG_5646.JPG

 

The chassis will break before this motor comes loose  :laugh2:  Drivetrain test - axle rotates happy at the bare click of my Wrightway - totally smooth - no vibration - tame as a hamster - zero heat - draws .3 amps at 5 volts :shok:

 

IMG_5647.JPG


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#48 Pablo

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 11:45 PM

As Kim Lander pointed out, the Hemi shifts a lot of weight to the right. I compensated by re-positioning my center section weight, and adding a left side pan weight

 

IMG_5649.JPG

 

My job is done. I hope we can race again soon and I hope my experience helped my fellow racers  :sun_bespectacled:

 

IMG_5650.JPG


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#49 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 29 April 2020 - 12:58 AM

What size tires do you use, what track do they race on, and what is the lap length? Thanks...
Yortuk & Georg Festrunk

#50 Pablo

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Posted 29 April 2020 - 09:16 AM

.730, The Dungeon in Prattville, Alabama, 155'


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