25 replies to this topic

[Matt Sheldon]

Forgive me if this is posted elsewhere, I have run many searches without a direct answer. 

 

I have noticed that many pro cars from the 60's have their drive train orientated on the passenger side. Then 70's and pretty much starting in the 80s exclusively, the drivetrain is orientated on the drivers side. Was there a reason for this? Endbell drive vs. can side? If so, why not just flip the motor? Additionally it seems a lot of European 1/32 pro cars from the 80's were still sporting the drive train on the passenger side.

 

Any help, opinions, photos are greatly appreciated.

[slotcarone]

Here in the USA the chassis design changed when the motors went from end Bell Drive to can drive. The can drive setup helped to Center the motor weight in the chassis

[eshorer]

Do any of you think there's a distinct advantage to having the gear (whether anglewinder spur or inline crown) on either the inside of outside of the donut? Not because of the offset weight, but because of the torque.

Eddie

[Don Weaver]

May have had something to do with soldering in the motor.  Wasn't done with in-lines so it may be been the continuation of the practice of screwing in the motor via the endbell.  Rotation is the same for either endbell drive or can drive.

 

Don

[Ramcatlarry]

1) Endbell being nylon cannot have the secure threading of a can mount. Most of the motor heat and stress in one place had more failures.

2) When armatures started to have advanced timing, the motor rotation became VERY important.  Neutral timing allows either end for drive pinion.  On inline, just flip the crown. Angle/sidewinder has to alternate frame location.

[John Streisguth]

With the advent of the Mura cans, the can bushing/bearing was bigger than what was in the endbell, so it better coped with the stress from the gear mesh.  Also, with the endbell farther from the axle, less traction compound got into the brushes so less fouling.

As to why the swap from side to side, if the motors were being built for a certain direction of rotation (timing advance), it was probably easier for the first builds to just leave the motor shaft long than wind arms for the opposite direction, and just change the way the motor sat. Just "flipping" the motor changes nothing.

[slotcarone]

Do any of you think there's a distinct advantage to having the gear (whether anglewinder spur or inline crown) on either the inside of outside of the donut? Not because of the offset weight, but because of the torque.

Eddie

That could only possibly make a difference in an inline set up. When meshed correctly there should be no gear bind and really I don't think the torque comes into play here.

[eshorer]

That could only possibly make a difference in an inline set up. When meshed correctly there should be no gear bind and really I don't think the torque comes into play here.

Hang your inline by the guide with wires hooked to a power supply and you'll definitely see it torque to the side. I'm not sure if it would act the same in an angle winder. Anyway, just musing about any advantages/disadvantages as a result.

Eddie

[tonyp]

When anglewinders first appeared, there werent many Motor cans that could be can mounted so they went endbell Drive according to the rotation of the motors you already had. Most were CW which put motor can o the inside of the donut on a blue king.

[Keith Tanaka]

Do any of you think there's a distinct advantage to having the gear (whether anglewinder spur or inline crown) on either the inside of outside of the donut? Not because of the offset weight, but because of the torque.

Eddie

Eddie, the wing cars all have the gears (pinion/spur) on the inside of the donut turn on the King track. Traction is the name of the game and motor torque does play a role. Also, it's interesting at BPR on the MTT flat track as the Retro racers (inline) prefer to use the TSR D3 motor which runs the opposite of the Retro Hawk motor. Again, the donut tends to determine which motor/gear setup is best. 

 

Keith

[MSwiss]

Keith,

No, on your first statement.

 

The gears on the outside.

 

I think guys like the TSR D3, for the flat track, based on more torque and brakes, with the light, close to neutral  timing.

[Keith Tanaka]

Keith,

No, on your first statement.

 

The gears on the outside.

 

I think guys like the TSR D3, for the flat track, based on more torque and brakes, with the light, close to neutral  timing.

Mike, you're right. I was thinking of the BPR flat track donut which is the opposite of the King track.

 

Keith

[eshorer]

 

I think guys like the TSR D3, for the flat track, based on more torque and brakes, with the light, close to neutral  timing.

I actually was thinking of Buena Park's Flat Track when I was questioning whether the TSR was being used in inline cars because of it running in the opposite direction from the Retro Hawks. The Flat track has two "left" turns AND the "left" donut, compared to only one 180 degree "right" turn, and one "right" dogleg turn. I still wonder if the natural torque on an inline car is advantageous when it turns in the direction of a TSR on a track with so many left turns. I guess a simple test swapping equal motors and gear side would tell. Perhaps when the world opens up again!  :-)

Eddie

[MSwiss]

2 different type, equal motors?

 

How would you be able to tell?

[Eddie Fleming]

Eddie

 

 when you apply power to a inline Hawk Retro it lifts the right side of the car. I would think that would make the RH better for left turns as you apply power in the turn? 

[eshorer]

2 different type, equal motors?

 

How would you be able to tell?

Well, far from a perfect science, obviously. I was thinking about any obviously improved handling characteristics based on fairly equal straightaway speed motors.

Eddie

[eshorer]

Eddie

 

 when you apply power to a inline Hawk Retro it lifts the right side of the car. I would think that would make the RH better for left turns as you apply power in the turn? 

If inline RH does indeed lift the right side, it's interesting that the TSR is preferred over the RH on that Flat track, which has more left turns, and that donut. Unless Swiss is right again, and the added torque and brakes are what make them preferable on that track.

Eddie

[Martin]

I have some experiences with torque reaction. 

When a motor is stationary (0 RPM) and you blip the throttle you get a rotating effect as the motor case catches up with the armature or crank.

But we are not starting with a 0 RPM motor in a turn. So its the difference in RPM is what causes a torque reaction.

So in the case of a motor already spinning there is no reaction so no gain of traction in a turn.

 

Now side-winder electric motors in drag racing could use this reaction to your advantage.

[eshorer]

I have some experiences with torque reaction. 

When a motor is stationary (0 RPM) and you blip the throttle you get a rotating effect as the motor case catches up with the armature or crank.

But we are not starting with a 0 RPM motor in a turn. So its the difference in RPM is what causes a torque reaction.

So in the case of a motor already spinning there is no reaction so no gain of traction in a turn.

 

Now side-winder electric motors in drag racing could use this reaction to your advantage.

Just to be clear, are you saying there is NO rotating effect and hence, "torque" in one direction or another as long as the car is in motion, even if you slow way down, and then PUNCH IT around the donut? Or that it is so minimal so as not to be even noticeable or measurable?

Eddie

[Eddie Fleming]

If you suspend a inline Rh car from wires attached to the guide flag and apply power the reaction is to lift the right side of the car. this happens when the motor is starting up or increasing speed.

 

I do not think the torque lifting the right side is very strong but the effect is visible. 

[Martin]

Yes this ''Or that it is so minimal so as not to be even noticeable or measurable?"

 

Not enough of a motor speed change.

[MSwiss]

I just conferred with one of the BP Retro racers, who is always on the podium, on the flat track.

He agrees with me.

Better brakes on the TSR allow him to dive deeper into the turns.

He did add that a few racers, with the opposite driving style, like, and do well, with the Retro Hawk.

Just like we don't race cars on a dyno, with no or very little load, we don't race cars suspended in mid air, dangling from lead wires.

[bbr]

a lot of time is had on the BPR flat track if you go deep and have the car rotate to line up for the exit

[Eddie Fleming]

As Mike so astutely observed we do not race cars suspended in mid air dangling from lead wires.

 

That makes it no less true that the torque of the motor is lifting the right side of the car.

 

The fact that the TSR motor is the choice on the BRP left turn dominate flat track wood indicate that the torque effect is small and is not the reason for the TSR dominance on that track, but rather the braking (as Mike said) is probably the strong point for the TSR.

 

I will also note that under breaking the torque applied to the chassis is in the opposite direction. I truly do not know how this effects the car. all that matters is how the car drives and untimely the timer. 

[tonyp]

The TSR motor is better on flat shorter then the JK. More low end and way more brakes. I’ve used them at Greg’s raceway on his new flat track and I can see a significant difference.

I’m sure the motor torque effect the chassis but with the car weight, aero and traction available it’s not noticeable.


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