Jump to content




Photo

Motor does not trip lap counter


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 smithspeedway

smithspeedway

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Joined: 29-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NH USA

Posted 29 June 2020 - 01:45 PM

We use an old TrikTrax lap counter with dead strips. It works flawlessly except for one thing. Some motors only trip the laps at half throttle. Some run Sloting Plus motors. Most work fine. One 21k motor does not. All JK motors except the 25k Hawk work fine. I have no idea how to fix this. Are there any old school wizards?

 

Steve






#2 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,945 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 June 2020 - 02:23 PM

Most likely no way to fix other than to convert to a photo eye to trip it.

My King has a BSRT system that does not count that motor, and other lower power motors, also.

The back EMF is too low.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#3 smithspeedway

smithspeedway

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Joined: 29-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NH USA

Posted 29 June 2020 - 03:20 PM

What's weird is that we have a division where a lot of guys run a super cheap generic motor like THIS and those work flawlessly. We have a Sloting Plus 300 g/cm motor that does not work, and motors rated at 330 g/cm and 230g/cm that work fine.
 
So, a junk surplus can motor works fine, as does a Falcon 7. If there was a limit or range I could understand.



#4 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,945 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 June 2020 - 04:30 PM

The best I can determine it has something to do with very low or neutral timing.

My last post was a bit of a misnomer, referring to lower-power motors.

High-power Phoenix motors don't count until they break in a bit.

And when I did the Hawk 25 longevity test for JK/Jerry Kulich, and car ran 3,200+ real miles, that car didn't count laps for the first 3,000 miles/200 hours.

Even then, it was a bit sporadic.

Apparently your Trik Trax has the same quirk as my BSRT, which is sort of HO-oriented, where I think they typically use light bars.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#5 tonyp

tonyp

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,842 posts
  • Joined: 12-February 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sanford, FL, land of lizards and big roaches

Posted 29 June 2020 - 04:48 PM

Would a longer dead strip help? You could put tape on the braid to make it longer and see if that works.


  • Pappy likes this

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#6 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,945 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 June 2020 - 06:05 PM

A longer dead strip might help, but tape won't make it longer.

That will be just create a longer dead spot between the power and the dead strip.
  • Guillermo Suar likes this

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#7 SlotCarsten

SlotCarsten

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 111 posts
  • Joined: 10-August 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Copenhagen

Posted 30 June 2020 - 01:21 AM

I do not know of the specifics for TrikTrax, and I do not know of the specific motor being referenced.
 
However I can't stop wondering if it is related to the issue with high-timed motors that I discovered some 5 years ago and published in this THREAD.
 
If that is the case, a diode in series with the deadstrip wirings, and facing the correct way, might possible resolve the issue.


  • Ramcatlarry and NSwanberg like this

Carsten Grønnemann
poweredbylapmaster.gif
www.lapmaster.dk


#8 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,310 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:10 AM

When I had an HO track in my home, I had dead strips and electromechanical counters. To get the counting reliable, I had to put small capacitors across the terminals of the counters, which acted to increase the pulse length of the voltage.  


"Whatever..."

#9 SpeedyNH

SpeedyNH

    Old Engineer

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Joined: 18-July 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cow Hampshire

Posted 30 June 2020 - 10:31 AM

Also, is there a resistor in series with the dead strips to the counter like some that i've seen? 


Steve Lang

#10 smithspeedway

smithspeedway

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Joined: 29-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NH USA

Posted 30 June 2020 - 01:30 PM

Thanks, everyone.

 

No diodes, resistors, etc. If I try that, what kind of resistors or diodes?



#11 SpeedyNH

SpeedyNH

    Old Engineer

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Joined: 18-July 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cow Hampshire

Posted 30 June 2020 - 04:50 PM

i was going to suggest lowering the value of or eliminating any resistors, so don't add any. 

 

We should ask John S. what value capacitors he used, e.g. 0.1 microFarad ceramic? 


Steve Lang

#12 Ramcatlarry

Ramcatlarry

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,670 posts
  • Joined: 08-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Charles, IL 60174

Posted 30 June 2020 - 08:25 PM

Since current'is very low, a small diode should be enough. Be sure that the dead strip polarity is opposite of the track power (in order to increase the EMF). The diode will allow it to only count in one travel direction only.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... (for now)
race directing around Chicago-land

 

Diode/Omni repair specialist
USRA 2017 member #404
USSCA  member

Host 2006 ISRA/USA Nats
Great Lakes Slot Car Club member
60+ year pin Racing rail/slot cars in America


#13 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,310 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 30 June 2020 - 09:11 PM

I was surprised, I actually had a complete second set-up that I never used... still have it 25 years later.

 

I used 220 microfarad electrolytics, polarized.


  • Ramcatlarry likes this
"Whatever..."

#14 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,022 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Was Silicon Beach Adjacent - Now the Playa District

Posted 30 June 2020 - 11:23 PM

We're entering the Wayback Machine for this: back in the olden days the lap counters were basically pinball machine counters. As the cars got faster there was a problem with the lap counter "missing" the count. Neal McCurdy whipped up a circuit that was more sensitive than using the car to trip a relay. I'm not an electronics guru but the circuit would sense the car passing the counter strip and then send an amplified and prolonged pulse to the counter. After the problematic counters were afixed with the circuit there were very few problems.


  • Cheater likes this
Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

MACHINESIGN.JPG

#15 Tex

Tex

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,092 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denton, TX

Posted 01 July 2020 - 08:56 AM

I'm completely unknowledgable about such things, so I figured I'd chime in with what I "think" I overheard when Dallas Slot Cars had a sinmilar problem.....

 

DSC had such a problem(sporadic) until they made sure each lane had it's own ground, instead of one ground for the whole lot.....


Richard L. Hofer

Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! Only you're a block over and a block behind.

#16 smithspeedway

smithspeedway

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Joined: 29-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NH USA

Posted 01 July 2020 - 09:38 AM

Since current'is very low, a small diode should be enough. Be sure that the dead strip polarity is opposite of the track power (in order to increase the EMF). The diode will allow it to only count in one travel direction only.

That is interesting. I don't remember which way I wired it in the first place. We use this - https://www.worthpoi...unter-517052043

 

trik-trax-lane-lap-counter_1_c8e20cd2a8b

 

There is one common wire to all 6 lanes. If I understand the system correctly, the pulses go out the common wire. The car completes the circuit on the dead strips to allow the pulse to return on one wire, scoring  a lap for that lane. Maybe I can start by reversing the supply and return lines?



#17 smithspeedway

smithspeedway

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Joined: 29-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NH USA

Posted 01 July 2020 - 01:49 PM

So, based on all your info, I said the heck with it and tried reversing all the wires to the dead strips. All motors count perfectly now. I guess I had it wired backwards for ten years.

zsoA9vC.jpg


  • Half Fast, Rotorranch and Shiggy like this

#18 SpeedyNH

SpeedyNH

    Old Engineer

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Joined: 18-July 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cow Hampshire

Posted 01 July 2020 - 03:02 PM

wow, that's odd. when i've had 'em backwards, i don't think any of 'em worked! 

good thinkin'. 

now you can add the diodes, capacitors, multiple common wires and everything! (just kidding) 


  • smithspeedway likes this
Steve Lang

#19 Rotorranch

Rotorranch

    What's a title?

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Joined: 22-November 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 01 July 2020 - 03:55 PM

Glad you figured it out!!!

 

I was wondering if it was reversed, but didn't want to confuse the issue.

 

Rotor


Jeff Chambers

Posted Image      Posted Image
                                         "Kinky Kar"

#20 smithspeedway

smithspeedway

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Joined: 29-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NH USA

Posted 01 July 2020 - 07:34 PM

Glad you figured it out!!!

 

I was wondering if it was reversed, but didn't want to confuse the issue.

 

Rotor

 

Yep, for TEN YEARS. Since it is just a feed line with 6 returns, I never considered that polarity mattered.



#21 Half Fast

Half Fast

    Keeper Of Odd Knowledge

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,362 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NYC, Long Island

Posted 01 July 2020 - 09:51 PM

Oh Goody!

 

I like stories with happy endings :)

 

Cheers


Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now.

The most dangerous form of ignorance is not knowing that you don't know anything!

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

 

 

 
 

#22 SpeedyNH

SpeedyNH

    Old Engineer

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Joined: 18-July 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cow Hampshire

Posted 01 July 2020 - 11:56 PM

yep, polarity: in my experience, most commercial dead-strip counters only use the negative half of the back EMF waveform when a car under power travels through the isolated sensor section and ignore/clip off the positive part of the AC waveform. 

first time i hooked one up at a commercial raceway, i couldn't Believe that the thing had to be wired 'backwards' in order to work! then i took a look at the front-end circuitry on the counter card, and sure enough, that's what it was looking for. 

i did double (or quad, can't remember) up on the return (common) wire on one track with a long counter cable (Queen City Engleman) and isolate the lanes somewhat, because if a bunch of cars went through the counter together simul, the signal strength on a lane might become slightly distorted sharing one return wire and fall off some in amplitude when i looked at it on a 'scope. that solved the very rare missed lap. 


Steve Lang





Electric Dreams Online Shop