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A returning racer's thoughts: cogent or not?


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#1 Cheater

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:04 AM

Since I am going away to play with toy cars for a couple of days, I thought I would roil the waters by posting the following comments (with the author's limited permission), which were part of a private email I received some weeks back.

* * * * * * * * * *
"I have to admit that perhaps my biggest frustration or mental block involves the many different organizations, each with their own sets of rules. "Back in the day", it was all Group 7 "run what ya brung". The only rules defined the physical size and clearance of the car. One car class with few rules. Simple. Now there's the USRA. And here in [my area] is [another regional slot racing league]. Many rules are the same, yet some are different, specifically car classes. And to top it off, there are local track rules for the weekly races at my "local"(38 miles away!) track. I can build up a GTP car that is legal at our weekly races. But it differs from what the [regional league] calls a GTP car. And I'm going to build a "Wing flexi" car that will be legal at our local track. But it won't be legal for [the regional league]. In some respects, the cost has come down due to the standardized stamped steel chassis such as the Champion Turbo-Flex and relatively low-end motors like the Pro Slot SpeedFX 16D.

But if you can't have one car that can be raced in different series under different organizations, you've got to have a car for each class and organization.... the cost goes up as a result. I've cried to the guys at the local track about this and, as expected, my words fall on deaf ears. I'm not so much trying to actually bring about great change or anything, but at least give voice to the concept of standardization/consolidation of rules and car classes from one organization to another."

* * * * * * * * * *

I've bitched about this for years and view this racer's comments as further evidence that the fragmentation of the commercial hobby is a significant problem. Is it possible on some level to address this racer's concerns?

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap





#2 Bill from NH

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 10:33 AM

I ran in the "run-what-ya-brung" days, but that's history & in the past. It wasn't always fun & it's not coming back. Same can be said for my open wing car days. Today one has many, sometimes difficult, choices to make regarding which classes they want to run or can afford, which series do they want to participate in, do they wish to just race locally, do they not want to compete at all but just build some cars & buy track time, etc. etc. Only the very wealthy can afford the time & money necessary to run everything that comes to town. As to the "universal slot car" concept, you'll never see it used successfully. It's been tried by organizations & manufacturers before & has failed. To name two, the TOAA had their set of flexi rules, Parma had their own Challenge Cup rules. Now neither is universally used. The closest you'll find to universality is sealed motor racing but even there nothing is being done the same. You have different motors being used, different body styles being rule, different tech rules applied, etc. And some of the major organizations sanctioning races today are, but not limited to, USRA, AMSRA, PNW AMCA, ANE AMCA, Norcal, & TSRA. Other than the use of a 4" chassis, how many of each group's rules read the same? How many of these groups do you think existed in the "run-what-ya-brung" days? None! Sorry, but the idea of universal slot car racing went out the window when people stopped trying to push a piece of rope. :)

#3 TSR

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 11:22 AM

It wasn't always fun & it's not coming back.

Bill, indeed you did miss all the fun... 8)

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#4 John E

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 11:30 AM

but let's address the real issue this mysterious comeback racer brought up.

Money.

He refers to having to build several cars if he wants to compete in several different racing organisations, to which I have to say, what's wrong with that?

Is he honestly thinking that he should be able to build a single car and race it any and everywhere? Even to my liberal way of thinking that's a bit much.

Here's a thought, let people start up as many racing organisations as they want and make as many rules as they want as different from all the other racing organisations as they want, the groups in which the racing is better or simply more fun will last, the others won't. Problem solved.

I'd be happy if we could just get the racing organisations to agree on some common rules, ie, USRA regions running only USRA national rules, but that seems impossible, the idea of actually standardising racing classes in different organisations would seem to me to be impossible.

Getting back to the money, if the cost of building say 3 or 4 different types of cars is cost prohibitive, I'd suggest that the mystery racer find a cheaper hobby. I'm not trying to be rude but come on, the cost to build a slot car has never been cheaper and the quality of the parts available has never been better. I'm reminded of a time when a few drag racers complained that if they had a $5 track fee to use a drag strip for 10 or so hours, the cost would stop them from racing. I told them that if spending the 10 bucks or so per month on track time was too much money, they needed to find something cheaper to occupy their time. LIfe is hard but it's fair.

We can't make slot car racing available and affordable to every level of income in the world, it just don't work. What we could do is encourage beginners to find one class that appeals to their taste and help them build/buy or whatever they need to race in it.
Let those who want to spend the money racing dozens of classes and cars do so, but the idea that we're going to be able to somehow make it possible for everyone to race every class while keeping their spending to a minimum, is, in my opinion, a fantasy.

When mystery racer wants to talk about the costs of racing, lets talk about hotel and airfare and the other related expenses to attend the National championships, it puts the cost of the cars into perspective real fast.

The only way to make it cheaper is to find a way for raceways to be set up as non-profit clubs or subsidised by the government or by some really wealthy patron, perhaps Mr. Buffett could be persuaded to re-direct a couple of million away from the Gates foundation....

John E
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#5 Bill from NH

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 02:14 PM

"It wasn't always fun & it's not coming back."

Let me better explain this. Racing "Run-what-ya-brung" was like playing king of the mountain. When someone blew your doors off one week with their horsepower, next week you had to come with something bigger & faster just to remain competitive. I started with a Russkit Carrera but soon most everybody was running $25 Champion RTRs with 707s. So did I for awhile, but later went to Pittcan in an International chassis which was lighter & handled bettter. While it might seem an interesting concept, I don't think "Rung-what-ya-brung" will ever be back as a regularly scheduled class.

#6 Larry LS

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:23 PM

If winning is all there is to it I guess 85% of racers should quit, as they never win. They are just a place holder/backmarker while those with money and talent beat up on them everyweek. Must be fun to get laughed at weekly.

If you think entering some class today and it's not about keeping up with the leaders is not what it is about, you better wake up. Winning is all they care about,.the rest of you get out of the way.

So the fun of just running and doing and running what you like is so terrrble because you won't win, is the same game as it is in any class today.

If you haven't won in a year quit. you ain't got it man or gonna get it. :lol:

I would rather run what you brung within limits today and see what turns up and have some good natured fun. Of course I am just an old, been there done that old phart.

Back markers can have fun to at my age. Fun to take a hot shot out now and then, when they get to be too big for their controllers. :lol: Fun to watch their faces turn red. :x
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#7 Pappy

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 05:17 PM

The closest you'll find to universality is sealed motor racing but even there nothing is being done the same.

How about FCR, it's the same no matter where you go. I've posted my idea on this forum and on OWH about the manufacturers setting the rules for each chassis they sell just like Parma does for the FCR, but everybody knocks it before they even think about it.

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#8 Rick

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 08:16 PM

Well, as you can see from the replies, why we are in the situation we are in. Mystery Racer (MR) has a valid point. Very valid point. But we have too many people with huge egos that want to keep and protect their little corner of the world, and in doing such, also keep everything in turmoil and divided.

For instance. Group 10. Used to be very easy. It was a Parma and then a Parma and Fast Ones Asian slot car motor. Pretty simple? Nope! In the Great Pacific North West we have a guru that calls Group 11 ( aka Challenger) a Group 10. Not a big deal, but then we have Production A and Production B and so on a so forth. There was only one ruling body that wanted to unify the rules and make them standard like RC or NASCAR and make it easy. The rest want to protect their market base ( agenda).

It would be very simple:

Group 10: Any stamped steel production chassis. This would make any chassi produced from Flex-Kar on, legal.

Motor: Any Asian made 16d with a 60 turn 30 wire armature.

Axle: ANY

Gear: ANY

Tire Size: Minimum 13/16 Front: 1/2"

Body style: Selected for region.

Minimum weight: 110 grams


Very simple, very basic. You think 3/32 axles are an advantage run them, you like the economics of 48 pitch, run it. Add dimensional specs and you have a universal class run coats to coast.

I had at one time, every leader of every group of scale racing org. in a ONE motel room and one time and we were about to make an agreement to unify the rules. All but one was interested and on board. So it could happen and will, if someone will only try.

The unity is one thing slots lack badly and until we all agree on that point, we will continue to fragment and divide what little is left. So MR , you are correct. Just keep shouting it until someone listens...................

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#9 Pappy

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Posted 14 July 2006 - 09:09 PM

Body style: Selected for region.


There went your unity. I can't take my Dirt Oval body to Michigan and race in their Nascar body race.

Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
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All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
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No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

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#10 Rick

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 12:03 AM

Better a body change, which you would make for any new race, than an entire car?

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#11 Bill from NH

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 05:54 AM

Rick, why did you give up on the USSCA? I thought it was a step in the right direction. :)

#12 Rick

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 10:55 PM

Why? Well at the time, I was seeing retirement in my near future and started to work a lot of hours at work. I also ran a raceway to add more hours to the week. And I found other interests to spend my time on. I had also spent several thousand dollars traveling all over the country, which became too expensive.

You really need to travel and set up evenst around the counrty to promote anything and introduce new ideas to people. Look at rock bands, the only way they really make it, is to open for a known star. Go on tour.

So I just dropped the ball...........bottom line.

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#13 TSR

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 06:56 AM

What was the difference between USSCA and USRA Division 2? From what I saw, the cars looked pretty much the same... :?

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#14 Pablo

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 07:14 AM

:lol: :down: :boohoo:
Did I read that correctly, the guy is whining because he has to drive 38 miles to his track? Plus he is whining about too many choices? :think: Hmmmm I see a pattern here... tell him Pablo says he is a big whiner :boohoo: stop crying, build a car for the class you enjoy, and go race it. :dance:
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#15 Bill from NH

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 07:54 AM

Pablo, since Cheater brought this up, maybe you know this guy or have raced with him. :lol: :lol:

#16 Bill from NH

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 07:55 AM

Pablo, since Cheater brought this up, maybe you know this guy or have raced with him. :lol: :lol:

#17 Pablo

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:14 AM

Well, if he doesn't like driving 38 miles to a race, I doubt that I have raced with him much :lol: I have actually FLOWN to races, and I didn't even cry 8)

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#18 Bill from NH

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 10:08 AM

I know, some people just don't appreciate how good they've got it! :) Sometimes I don't like driving the 12.5 miles to the track in Manchester. :lol:

#19 Cheater

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 10:11 AM

MR shared his comments to me a few weeks back and I thought they were interesting enough to ask his permission to post them here without identifying him or his geographic area.

From my perspective, the competitive side of commercial slot racing is far too fragmented. One essentially has to build separate cars for each and every raceway and/or racing series and I firmly believe this fact tends to decrease participation in our little hobby. FCR is a great idea but the cars (IMO) do not handle well and are not very durable. Plus the FCR class is not very popular as far as I have seen; in fact, I have never known a raceway that ran/runs FCR as a weekly class (although I am certain there are some that did/do).

It's all about barriers to participation. The fact that I cannot take a USRA Group 10 car in my suitcase when I fly to other cities and race the car without modifications is a barrier. We're always wrangling about whether competitive slot racing is a hobby or a sport. It seems to me that almost all activities that can be termed "sports" have rule sets that don't vary. The "games" are largely played using the same rules everywhere.

I am not surprised that Pablo found MR's 38-mile comment a bit off-putting, as Pablo drove roughly 500 miles each way to race with us this past weekend. And the nearest raceable track to me is 45 miles from home.

We need to keep in mind that, as a group, the Slotblog members represent a level of interest and skill far above that possessed by newbies. It should be pretty abundantly clear that our little group of crazies is not growing. Our viewpoint is overwhelmingly looking down from the top, and we need to consider the viewpoint of one looking from the bottom up. The comments of someone entering, or in this case re-entering, the hobby on the ground floor should not be dismissed or minimized if our intention is to find approaches that will help the commercial hobby grow and expand.

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#20 Bill from NH

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 12:35 PM

Your proposal to rectify the situation is? :?: I don't have one. :?

#21 Cheater

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 01:05 PM

Bill, I don't really have an answer to this problem, though a good start would be for raceways to use USRA rules unmodified and as written for at least one lower-end class, like Group 10. Or to race TSR cars without local rules tweaks.

Maybe we ought to conspire to have every TSR-owning racer who travels to walk into every raceway they can with car(s) in hand asking if they race TSR cars under national TSR rules. And when the answer is no, to turn and walk out the door. If enough people did this, sooner or later the trackowners might get the idea there was genuine demand for such a class. :lol:

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#22 Bill from NH

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 01:16 PM

It won't work in NH. :)

#23 Cheater

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 01:40 PM

I believe you. I've heard that the trackowners in NH are particularly contrary and difficult. :shock:

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#24 Ricks Raceway

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 03:58 PM

I believe you. I've heard that the trackowners in NH are particularly contrary and difficult. :shock:


Come on Greg, cut that out. We run TSRF and FCR hardbodies. :lol:

After posting a picture of a TSRF body I painted here in the TSRF forum, I have been getting more folks wanting painted bodies from me. Even Philippe liked it.

Ed Blake put the TSRF on the map in New Hampshire. He did exaltly what you said. He took them to every raceway he goes to, and still does. His reception has been not always welcomed but he tryed. Bill is only partially right. They don't want them in Manchester, N.H. but we love them in Rochester, N.H..

Soon as my roadcourse is finished Ed and I will be running the juice right out of the TSRFs again. :)

I see myself more as controversial and a pain in the azz, than contrary and difficult. :lol:

#25 Tex

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 04:26 PM

As I've heard Eric Burdon sing many a time... "Oh lord, please don't let me be misunderstood".

I'll get Greg off the hook by 'fessing up..... I'm the guy who e-mailed my comments to Greg. You guys really made a mountain out of a molehill. I just shared my observations as a "reborn" slot car racer with Greg. As one of my last comments says, I wasn't really trying to see sweeping changes put into effect so much as I was just trying to point out the obvious(or so I thought) benefits of standardization/consolidation. You know, KISS. Apparently, some of you take exception to that concept in general and don't feel there is anything to be gained in doing so. And some of you must also take exception to the idea of being economy-minded by possibly making one car work in more than one series. What was I thinking?! It seemed like such a no-brainer (I can hear the jokes now; go ahead, I've given you the perfect "setup").

"He refers to having to build several cars if he wants to compete in several different racing organisations, to which I have to say, what's wrong with that? "

Nothing. What's wrong with with having just ONE car to compete in more than one series?

"Is he honestly thinking that he should be able to build a single car and race it any and everywhere? Even to my liberal way of thinking that's a bit much."

I never said I "should be able to...". I'm not that conceited; don't put words in my mouth. The idea is "wouldn't it be nice if....". Pretty over the top idea, huh?

"I'd be happy if we could just get the racing organisations to agree on some common rules..."

(rubbing my eyes vigorously in typical Jon Stewart mock disbelief) HUH?! Did I miss something? Isn't that kind of the gist of my comments? It doesn't take a HUGE leap of the imagination to also see that common car classes could be agreed upon as well as the common rules YOU would be happy to see agreed upon. See? We're not so different after all.

"Getting back to the money, if the cost of building say 3 or 4 different types of cars is cost prohibitive, I'd suggest that the mystery racer find a cheaper hobby. I'm not trying to be rude....."

Oh, I intend to build 3 or 4 different types of cars in time. But multiply that by 2 or 3 different racing organizations' rules and car classes, and 3 or 4 cars potentially becomes 6 - 12 different cars. As far as your suggestion that I find a different hobby, I must say you make a very unique ambassador for advancing the plight of slot racing in general. And as for your being rude without even trying, WOW! I applaud your apparent natural ability.

"When mystery racer wants to talk about the costs of racing, lets talk about hotel and airfare and the other related expenses to attend the National championships, it puts the cost of the cars into perspective real fast."

Sounds like a personal problem..... yours, not mine.

"If winning is all there is to it I guess 85% of racers should quit, as they never win. They are just a place holder/backmarker while those with money and talent beat up on them everyweek. Must be fun to get laughed at weekly.

If you think entering some class today and it's not about keeping up with the leaders is not what it is about, you better wake up. Winning is all they care about; the rest of you get out of the way.

So the fun of just running and doing and running what you like is so terrrble because you won't win, is the same game as it is in any class today.

If you haven't won in a year quit. you ain't got it man or gonna get it. "

I can't tell if you are serious or being facetious; I hope the latter. If it's the former, you must sit on the same row as John at the U.N.

"Did I read that correctly, the guy is whining because he has to drive 38 miles to his track? Plus he is whining about too many choices? Hmmmm I see a pattern here... tell him Pablo says he is a big whiner. Stop crying, build a car for the class you enjoy, and go race it."

Whining? Maybe a little about the distance (not the many choices).....probably more jealous of others that live closer. At least you know how to spell "whining"; you get extra credit. As far as your comment about "too many choices".... no, I'm not whining about that; It's not about "choices" per se. It's more about if I "choose" to race locally AND at the state level, I must build 2 seperate but VERY similar cars. Yes, I could just modify the one car back and forth. But tell me.... what's wrong with eliminating the differences between the cars and having just one car for both series'?

I've only been reading this forum for little more than a week (maybe two). All I've done is put forth some observations and ideas. Since I was out of slot racing for 33 years, these ideas may have been brought up and tried out a dozen times; I had no way of knowing so you'll have to forgive my bringing up what may be a festering sore to you. If you don't like the ideas/observations or agree with them, it is OK to express yourselves in a more graceful manner. I think some of you have been in the fish bowl too long, not enough oxygen. You ought to come up for air once in a while and see the world. It's a beautiful place. Really. I see 38-miles of it (one way) each time I drive to my local track (this one's for you, Paul).
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