77 replies to this topic

[Phil Smith]

Local racer Leo Winters, who won the !-15 Nats one year, told me he drove better after a drink...or 10. Heck, he use to drink during the race.

 

Another couple of local racers dropped acid before a 27 race.

[Big_John]

Dropping  acid and smoking dope questions aside, I'm trying to wrap my head around the claims of "better brakes" that some controllers have. 

 

As I understand it, the braking is very simply shorting the two braids and turning the motor into a generator. Dead short or zero resistance is as much brake as you are going to get. 

 

Adding resistance just lessens the amount of brake. 

 

So...  My trusty DiFalco has a nifty relay in the brake circuit that knocks the resistance down to where it's now all about the alligator clips and how good the track wiring is. That is if I have it set for "full brake".

 

So, I read the Third Eye claims of better braking because of their "FET brake" and don't quite understand how it can be any better.  Yea, Field Effect Transistor (FET) sounds cool but is it just hype? 

 

Not talking about throttle curves or that... That's another subject. Just braking claims. 

 

Any insight? 

[Eddie Fleming]

John you are correct about the theory of breaks. The difference is in how much resistance you can eliminate from that so called short of the braid, and how consistent that resistance is every time you close those contacts or turn on that FET. The DiFalco relay or the 3rd-eye FET are located close to the track and eliminate as you say most everything from the brake short so they give great brakes. Does the relay or the FET have less resistance? We could debate that but for real world use they are both 0.

 

As for your statement about the brakes on your DiFalco with the relay and the setting on full brake, I am not sure we are on the same page. If the Brake relay switch is turned on the brake pot setting should have no effect on brakes. If the Pot setting changes the brakes with the relay switch on the relay is not working.

[bbr]

With the 3rd eye I had, the brakes came on very hard regardless of what level of setting. So I am guessing that the fet brakes comes on faster than analog circuit brakes

[Phil Smith]

It seems to me mechanical brakes should come on at the speed of electricity. I really don't understand the advantage of other types of brakes.

[bbr]

With analog circuit there's a certain amount of r/c (resistance, capacitance) which causes some lag.
Digital circuitry (semiconductor) don't have as much lag.
It is like cd vs vinyl music, and digital amps vs tube amps.

[Big_John]

John you are correct about the theory of breaks. The difference is in how much resistance you can eliminate from that so called short of the braid, and how consistent that resistance is every time you close those contacts or turn on that FET. The DiFalco relay or the 3rd-eye FET are located close to the track and eliminate as you say most everything from the brake short so they give great brakes. Does the relay or the FET have less resistance? We could debate that but for real world use they are both 0.

 

As for your statement about the brakes on your DiFalco with the relay and the setting on full brake, I am not sure we are on the same page. If the Brake relay switch is turned on the brake pot setting should have no effect on brakes. If the Pot setting changes the brakes with the relay switch on the relay is not working.

Yes, that was the way my Dad, the ever brilliant analog electrical guy, explained it to me back in the sixties. Taught me how to solder when I was about 10 years old too. He never picked up a slot car, but understood it all. 

 

I think we are still on the same page, I just worded it a little differently. By "set for full brake", I meant the switch thrown for the relay. Sorry if that confused anything.  

[Phil Smith]

With analog circuit there's a certain amount of r/c (resistance, capacitance) which causes some lag.
Digital circuitry (semiconductor) don't have as much lag.
It is like cd vs vinyl music, and digital amps vs tube amps.

 

A FET would have more lag than a mechanical switch, as a switch would be a direct connection. But I don't think either one would have anywhere close to enough lag to be perceptible.

 

In the case of an electrical cord connecting a table lamp or some other household item to a power source, the copper wire inside the cord acts as the conductor. This energy travels as electromagnetic waves at about the speed of light, which is 670,616,629 miles per hour,1 or 300 million meters per second.

[Big_John]

With the 3rd eye I had, the brakes came on very hard regardless of what level of setting. So I am guessing that the fet brakes comes on faster than analog circuit brakes

I had to really think about this, but I keep coming back to not wanting to have the brakes come on so hard that it upsets the car. That is why we turn down the amount of braking. If the brakes come on hard every time, regardless of setting, that would seem to me to be counterproductive.

[Big_John]

my favorite controller of the month LOL --- used it this last weekend (back at the track after a year of sitting it out), like it so far

 

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So, now let's ask about this one...

 

I used an earlier model Synapse controller recently and what I really liked was what they called "dynamic braking" were the braking started as soon as you started to back off the trigger and not when the trigger was completely released.

 

In practice, I was faster and more consistent.  In the race, well...  It was an enduro and the controller was my racing partners. I had no racing time with the controller, just practice time.  The car got wadded up pretty hard very early on (it was a rough race) and I found that I wasn't comfortable making changes "on the fly" to try to soften everything up to compensate for the handling. In hindsight, I should have grabbed my DiFalco, but whatever. 

 

I do find myself drawn to the Synapse Lite though and they (Joy) tell me that the dynamic braking is still part of the package.  I haven't pulled the trigger (pun intended) on one yet and I have to ask if that braking system does do well in this new package. The other issue I noticed with the older model was a bit of delay after power up from a track call and no brakes after power down from a track call. 

[bbr]

I've used my synapse lite last week.
Can't tell about the dynamic brakes, the original synapse definitely was noticable maybe bc u can switch the mode, but no modes on the lite.
Power off, there's no brakes.

[Eddie Fleming]

on the lite. Power off, there's no brakes.

Now that is a show stopper for me.

 

Any controller should have brakes when the power goes off.

[bbr]

Lol, no brakes sometimes an advantage during track calls as u are gaining distance, good for three to five feet

[Eddie Fleming]

That's no problem you just keep the trigger pulled when the power goes off.

 

ON the other hand what if you are diving deep into the dead man when the power goes off? 

[BrettC]

So, now let's ask about this one...

 

I used an earlier model Synapse controller recently and what I really liked was what they called "dynamic braking" were the braking started as soon as you started to back off the trigger and not when the trigger was completely released.

 

In practice, I was faster and more consistent.  In the race, well...  It was an enduro and the controller was my racing partners. I had no racing time with the controller, just practice time.  The car got wadded up pretty hard very early on (it was a rough race) and I found that I wasn't comfortable making changes "on the fly" to try to soften everything up to compensate for the handling. In hindsight, I should have grabbed my DiFalco, but whatever. 

 

I do find myself drawn to the Synapse Lite though and they (Joy) tell me that the dynamic braking is still part of the package.  I haven't pulled the trigger (pun intended) on one yet and I have to ask if that braking system does do well in this new package. The other issue I noticed with the older model was a bit of delay after power up from a track call and no brakes after power down from a track call.

 

 

John, the ACD range of controllers from Yatronics has this same braking feature.

I find that the cars are more settled in the transition from power to braking, meaning, driving deeper into the corner.

and they are great for left handed racers, as the knobs are on the top of the handle.

[Big_John]

 

 

John, the ACD range of controllers from Yatronics has this same braking feature.

I find that the cars are more settled in the transition from power to braking, meaning, driving deeper into the corner.

and they are great for left handed racers, as the knobs are on the top of the handle.

 

I found their website and it sounds like it works the same as the Synapse. Basically a microprocessor control with a potentiometer trigger. 

 

The Synapse I used really was nice in that it made for smooth, deep braking. 

 

The power off/no brakes is a hard pill to swallow though. I have to think more on this. 

[John Luongo]

i seem to remember using a cidex/omni diode controller years ago that featured "thresh hold braking". sounded similar to the yatronics and synapse braking system. good grp10 controller.

[BrettC]

 

I found their website and it sounds like it works the same as the Synapse. Basically a microprocessor control with a potentiometer trigger. 

 

The Synapse I used really was nice in that it made for smooth, deep braking. 

 

The power off/no brakes is a hard pill to swallow though. I have to think more on this. 

the Dicon, ( Dual ) version of their controller has the “ regenerative “ brakes, and “ normal “ brakes, plus soft and hard throttle response, and they come in short, or long throw triggers.

and I’m sure it still has braking when the track power goes off.

the ACD controllers have a electronic chip in the top of the trigger that moves across a coil imbedded in the main circuit board.

the only issue I’ve seen, is the trigger is made of “ Lexan “, and it cracks at the front of the pivot bush, but I’ve since made a 3D printed replacement in ABS.

 

I was actually looking at buying the Synapse Lite in the near future myself.

[Big_John]

i seem to remember using a cidex/omni diode controller years ago that featured "thresh hold braking". sounded similar to the yatronics and synapse braking system. good grp10 controller.

I have two of those, bought new for my sons to use back in the nineties. It was a big step up, but it wasn't capable of that. 

[Big_John]

the Dicon, ( Dual ) version of their controller has the “ regenerative “ brakes, and “ normal “ brakes, plus soft and hard throttle response, and they come in short, or long throw triggers.

and I’m sure it still has braking when the track power goes off.

the ACD controllers have a electronic chip in the top of the trigger that moves across a coil imbedded in the main circuit board.

the only issue I’ve seen, is the trigger is made of “ Lexan “, and it cracks at the front of the pivot bush, but I’ve since made a 3D printed replacement in ABS.

 

I was actually looking at buying the Synapse Lite in the near future myself.

The web site isn't real clear, so I assumed, but that sounds suspiciously like a linear potentiometer. 

 

Still having brakes is interesting though. 

 

Buying one doesn't sound easy...  Can't tell my track owner to order one from ERI.  LOL.  Especially since I preach to buy from our home track.  I can get a Synapse from him though. 

[bbr]

Been thinking about a solution to no brakes. A relay normal close can be used for brakes at no power situation, n the relay open when there's track power. N a resistor in that circuit to adjust the amount of brakes.

[SpeedyNH]

i've seen a controller somewhere that has a button on the back of the handle where your thumb can hit it for brake system bypass (full brake when you push it).

that would be difficult for me to use, but one could add a series brake pot to that in parallel with the electronic brake and some might like the idea. 

[Big_John]

i've seen a controller somewhere that has a button on the back of the handle where your thumb can hit it for brake system bypass (full brake when you push it).
that would be difficult for me to use, but one could add a series brake pot to that in parallel with the electronic brake and some might like the idea.

I have a button like that in my Difalco. If you look in the site about adding the optional mush button, you'll see it can be installed as a brake button. I'm not quite coordinated enough to use it like I wanted, so I put the idea on the back burner.

The button is good though. Hold it while racing and as soon as you let off the trigger, you have full brake regardless of any other settings. I can't remember if it lets the relay energize or not though. I think it does. Gotta look again.

[John Luongo]

i used this brake lead attachment quite some time ago. it offered 3 stages of braking. the results varied with the motor design you ran.

[Jim Difalco]

John you are correct about the theory of breaks. The difference is in how much resistance you can eliminate from that so called short of the braid, and how consistent that resistance is every time you close those contacts or turn on that FET. The DiFalco relay or the 3rd-eye FET are located close to the track and eliminate as you say most everything from the brake short so they give great brakes. Does the relay or the FET have less resistance? We could debate that but for real world use they are both 0.

 

As for your statement about the brakes on your DiFalco with the relay and the setting on full brake, I am not sure we are on the same page. If the Brake relay switch is turned on the brake pot setting should have no effect on brakes. If the Pot setting changes the brakes with the relay switch on the relay is not working.

While the brake relay bypasses the brake rheostat for better full brakes on my controllers, regardless of the rheostat knob position,  I actually recommend racers leave their brake rheostat set at full brakes when using the ESP relay. If the relay is damaged, a coil wire breaks, the ESP slide switch is faulty or the wiper button that makes contact with the wiper band area that turns on the relay is dirty etc. then you will get the brake setting on the rheostat. You do not want to be surprised by half brakes if one of these conditions, however rare, occurs.

 

I would also like to note that there is no fuse on either my brake relay or power relay outputs like the controller with the extra EYE. This means I do not introduce any resistance to the circuit from the electronic fuses we both use. Resistance will rob both full braking as well as full power from the car. My controllers use fuses strictly on the rheostat and the transistors and not on the relay outputs.