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G12 arm diameter? What's the difference?


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#1 Jklauk

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 07:01 PM

I'd like to scratch build a G12 motor. I have an old pro slot .480 arm i could use. Dont know the timing. There are so many choices of arm diameter and degrees of timing. What works best. Racing on a fast swoopy king with 14.4 volts. Koford M530U chassis. Thanks for any help.
Jason Klauk




#2 MSwiss

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 07:24 PM

The track you race at is owned by a champion slot racer, Richard Curnutte.

I'm surprised you aren't just asking him.
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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#3 bbr

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 12:17 AM

if you are going to race, easier to go BBB, unless you like to build, n you need to get all the tools which gets pricey


Mike Low
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Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#4 Jklauk

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 12:33 AM

Purchased my G12 roller from Paul, BBB. I do have some of the tools to align brush hoods and magnets. Just looking for an explanation on the benefits of more timing or larger arm diameter. Sure I could call Richard tomorrow but I thought that was the whole point of this site?
Jason Klauk

#5 bbr

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 12:47 AM

lol, look at what the fast guys run n start from there, they already done most of the work, I always look at what Sam does bc he's always testing


Mike Low
Cry like a baby, drive like a girl, walk like a man.
Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#6 mreibman

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 06:33 AM

As an alleged group 12 racer myself, and a self proclaimed motor building enjoyed, I can suggest a few things for one motor box stock or hillbilly 12 (very similar c-can g12 motors). Wine I usually race at PJRaceway, it's a swoopy king with similar power to your situation.

I get to race against some stiff competition which has included several champions at various levels.

Whatever I build, and no matter how well I build it, I'm about .2 seconds slower than the frontrunners there.

My conversations around motor parts have been with a current and former champion who builds and sells motors and sets up a lot of the racers who go fast. YMMV.

Koford, Red Fox, or Canoza cans and endbells (cahoza not allowed in NASRA box stock). Motors magnets M607.
Koford arms, .518 diameter. Timing recommended for box stock 40-41 degrees. Local rules 9T 72 pitch pinion for box stock. Do not race brand new arms, send them out to be reconditioned.
Use good bearings and align everything
Endbell hardware cahoza, proslot, kelly, red fox, motors
Brushes - koford SBF2
Springs Camen or Motors

You have more leeway in hb12 because you can run higher timing and change motors.

If you have smaller diameter arms, they may also be shorter to run in c12. I have no experience on that.

I have a lot of old experience building these things as an amateur, and that's all I aim to be... I learn and I try my best. Once in a while I get lucky, but just try and don't quit.
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Mike Reibman
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Mostly just play with lots of cars.
Able to maintain slot cars with a single bound.
Faster than a speeding Womp.
More powerful than a 36D.
 
 

#7 MSwiss

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 09:05 AM

Sure I could call Richard tomorrow but I thought that was the whole point of this site?

Just pointing out you'll get the definitive answer, on what works best on his track, from Richard.

.480 arms aren't legal for G12.

There is a minimum diameter allowed.

USRA Prez, Jason Holmes, who does post here regularly, can tell you what that is.

Other than Jason and Mike Reibman, there really aren't any regular wing car racers who post here.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#8 NJ Racer

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 10:15 AM

You may have a Cobalt 12 Arm at .480 diameter for use in a Cobalt setup/motor and not intended for use with,  and will not fit properly in your Koford M530U G12 chassis.

 

My recommendation is to purchase a complete Group 12 Blueprinted C-Can Motor containing  a .518 arm direct from a slot car raceway. I assume you are building a Wing car to compete in G12 on a King Track. 


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Ray Carlisi

#9 mreibman

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 12:19 PM

Other than Jason and Mike Reibman, there really aren't any regular wing car racers who post here.


I may be irregular.
Mike Reibman
Alleged amateur racer.
Mostly just play with lots of cars.
Able to maintain slot cars with a single bound.
Faster than a speeding Womp.
More powerful than a 36D.
 
 

#10 Robert BG

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Posted 01 May 2021 - 04:46 PM

Mreibman had some great advice. But I'll add a little more.

 

When it comes to new arms, I always run them in a few (2-3) heat cycles before sending them out. This way what little is going to move will have done so. Also when I send them out I have the stacks reground to the proper diameter if needed since they tend to settle in sometimes before they are balanced/cut. I also usually use one of my older setups for this while body and chassis tuning.

 

When it comes to bearings I personally run GRW and have never had a problem.

 

The tools to build do cost a few bucks,but for me I enjoy it. There are some affordable hones out there too. Granted the shafts arent as true as the magnahones I own,but they've served me well. I generally use the cheaper ones to get close to final sizing and then use a good hone for the last pass and it has saved me a few bucks.

 

Cans.......Koford and the best bang for the buck most times but tend to be weak. I've found by silver soldering the seam that they are MUCH stronger then just the spot weld in the center. But it can be tricky to do while keeping it light. I just fill the seem and nothing more and unless you look VERY close you cant see it.

Cahoza,My fastest are Cahoza's but not always legal. They are super strong compared to Koford's and they weld the whole seam. So other than checking the size on a slug there is very little to do here.

As far as Red Fox go I've built only a few and the jury is out on them for me,though I've seen some VERY fast motors.

 

Magnets........The Koford M 607's are tough to beat especially for the price and availability. I'll usually buy 10 sets at a time to match pairs,but thats nothing compared to what some folks do. I've also had GREAT luck with Cahoza mags,but legality and availability varies.

Besides these I do have 2 absolute bullets that I built for kicks using mags I had left over from the 90's. I dont race them but they've been great test mules for HB12.

 

Hardware......I've found Cahoza to be the best fit and finish where price isnt a concern. But generally use Koford though it takes a bit of finesse. I also know guys who swear by the ProSlot copper stuff and wouldnt hesitate to use it if I didnt have a bunch of Koford.

 

Springs......I've had good luck with Cahoza,Camen,old Champion reds/Proslot and Koford. But my go to is usually Camen. One thing I've found is matching and adjusting tension can make or break a great motor. I started out with a old "fiddlestick" but have since moved to a DIY solution that is much more exact that I built from a small digital scale..........I've got a funny now but not so then story about this scale and small baggies with springs,a firearm and a cop :D  Needless to say it all worked out but I did have a nice talk with his CO about the young officers trigger discipline.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff but I am a big supporter of building your own stuff. I personally would prefer to be .2 behind the guy that bought everything from a pro with stuff I build,but this isnt for everyone. Still no matter if you build your own or buy there's tools that you'll need to go fast and they can get you by on a few builds to see if it's for you. What's funny is I've had fast guys try my fast stuff and they werent far off their pace showing it's not just about the motor.

 

You're lucky to have Rich to lean on,but like everything in life I've found that if you dont do some of the legwork like you are here they wont be as apt to help as much as they guy who does. So keep asking away and good luck


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Robert Fothergill

#11 Jason Holmes

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Posted 02 May 2021 - 11:30 AM

Jason

 

If you going to run with us at Piranha I would use a 518 Koford arm 42-46Deg a lot of guys have went to 46+ in timing and they Live LOL for OMB

 

I use a Koford set ups 528-530 hole Koford Mags Double Ball Bearings RF of PSG7 brushes TQ shunt wire Camen 5 coil lights if you can find them if not Cahoza 160 5 coil or old school champion red Lights if you have them 

 

jason

 

PS we just got a new stock off Koford arm's straight from Beuf ready to lock and Load 42,46,48 


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#12 Robert BG

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 04:14 AM

Jason

 

If you going to run with us at Piranha I would use a 518 Koford arm 42-46Deg a lot of guys have went to 46+ in timing and they Live LOL for OMB

 

I use a Koford set ups 528-530 hole Koford Mags Double Ball Bearings RF of PSG7 brushes TQ shunt wire Camen 5 coil lights if you can find them if not Cahoza 160 5 coil or old school champion red Lights if you have them 

 

jason

 

PS we just got a new stock off Koford arm's straight from Beuf ready to lock and Load 42,46,48 

 

When I came back to racing a few years ago I found it tough to run really high timing.I just couldnt believe they would last and I generally kept things around 38-40 degrees on anything meant to last a whole race in a wing car. I had a few flat track motors that I'd run upwards of 44 degrees but that was it up until goofed. I was having a few beers while loading fresh arms for a race at PJ when I loaded a 44 degree arm thinking it was a 40. The best part was I used a endbell that was also advanced 4 degrees lol. Needless to say it was the fastest of the bunch I took so I decided to run it. But man did it get hot :D although it almost made it through the race. It wasnt until the last 2 heats that it fell off and got really close to totally melting down. A few racers dropped out and we went from a few track calls per heat to none and that also didnt help much.. But I kept running it and it got so hot that it turned the arm tag black lol.

                Anyway when I got home and tore it down to try and find out what happened and I was a bit surprised to find a 44 degree arm that I thought was engraved 41. On top of that I had grabbed a 4 degree advanced endbell and not the standard one. But ever since I've never had an issue running more timing then I was used to.

    On a side note I have 2 endbells built for a lot of my setups. Some I'll build an alum and plastic and others will have different amounts of timing advance etc. By doing so it allows me to test a lot more combinations without having to build complete motors. Sometimes I'll even break in 2 arms for one setup,if you are careful you can take the complete endbell off with the arm and brushes still in place. I have a tool for turning motors over that has a setscrew that I put on the arm and it keeps it from snapping back due to the mags,but it's doable without if careful.


Robert Fothergill

#13 Jklauk

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Posted 17 May 2021 - 07:18 PM

Jason
 
If you going to run with us at Piranha I would use a 518 Koford arm 42-46Deg a lot of guys have went to 46+ in timing and they Live LOL for OMB
 
I use a Koford set ups 528-530 hole Koford Mags Double Ball Bearings RF of PSG7 brushes TQ shunt wire Camen 5 coil lights if you can find them if not Cahoza 160 5 coil or old school champion red Lights if you have them 
 
jason
 
PS we just got a new stock off Koford arm's straight from Beuf ready to lock and Load 42,46,48 


Jason Klauk

#14 Jklauk

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Posted 17 May 2021 - 07:19 PM

Wow. Lots of information to take in and I very much appreciate all of it. Hope to see you on race night!
Jason Klauk





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