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FSCS 2022 rules and schedule discussion


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#26 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 15 March 2022 - 06:40 PM

I'm going to sound like the old, back-in-the-day, get-off-my-lawn curmudgeon that I am .... but .... the 4" Stock Car rules have mandated a 1/8" front bumper for a LONG time.

 

Why change a long-standing rule just because the maker of the preferred body chose to put the cut line at exactly 1/8" leaving no room for cutter's error?  

 

The only Ralph Thorne Racing Titan body that I have is a non-COT ... but the cut line is exactly 1/8" allowing no room for error.  So ... cut at the bottom of the line instead of the top of the line and you'll be legal.

 

Every racer in the state is capable of measuring 1/8" to keep their car legal.  I've never had an issue maintaining a 1/8" front bumper because I've always taken either some 1/8" pin striping or cut a strip of 1/8" wide painter's tape to make my own cut line.  That's so I have something to lean the scissors or Exacto against and get a straight line.    Because I sure don't have a steady enough hand to cut a body out freehand.

 

Since it appears that some bodies have been allowed to "slide" ... I advocate giving the racer ONE warning and tell them not to present that body at tech again.  

 

Or ... take a firm stand and tell guys now to make sure the body they present in Pinellas Park (and future races) has a 1/8" front bumper.  They have a little over three weeks to get one painted and cut out.


Rollin Isbell
 





#27 dalek

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 07:18 AM

FWIW, the FNRS rule that governs the front bumper is "No cutting into the top surface of the body."  IOW, you can completely remove the vertical portion of what we're calling the front bumper.
 
My interpretation of our current LMP and GTP front bumper rule allows for the same thing.  "Maintaining some downturn" means to me that as long as you don't remove any of the curved transition, you can remove all of the vertical portion of the bumper.
 
Should the NASCAR rule be the same (as Robbie suggested)?
 
Are there any downsides to having basically no front bumper, such as, bodies get damaged more easily, meaning they have to be replaced more often? 
 
Any other downsides?
 
If the decision was mine to make, I'm thinking a minimum of 1/16" for all classes would make sense (NASCAR now, but LMP and GTP in next year's rules).
 

 



#28 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 08:06 AM

FWIW, the FNRS rule that governs the front bumper is "No cutting into the top surface of the body."  IOW, you can completely remove the vertical portion of what we're calling the front bumper.
 
My interpretation of our current LMP and GTP front bumper rule allows for the same thing.  "Maintaining some downturn" means to me that as long as you don't remove any of the curved transition, you can remove all of the vertical portion of the bumper.
 
Should the NASCAR rule be the same (as Robbie suggested)?
 
Are there any downsides to having basically no front bumper, such as, bodies get damaged more easily, meaning they have to be replaced more often? 
 
Any other downsides?
 
If the decision was mine to make, I'm thinking a minimum of 1/16" for all classes would make sense (NASCAR now, but LMP and GTP in next year's rules).

 
I don't race so I'm going to shut up.
 
Go ahead and add a diaplane and wings on the stock car body so they'll handle better. That might improve racing and make it easier for drivers to keep their cars on the track. I know it would damn sure help me.


Rollin Isbell
 


#29 Marcus P1 Raceway

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 08:29 AM

My 0.02 cents
I don't think we have to change the bumper rule in Nascar, if you want to use the RTR body cut below the line and you get 1/8. Especially for PRO-RACERS who can do wonders in other areas, it won't be difficult to find 1/8 bumper.
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#30 Twisted Metal

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 09:48 AM

Folks....the cut line that everyone is referring to on the Titan stock cars or COT is the splitter.
The actual bumper is above the splitter based on my conversations with the manufacturer. With that being the case there should be no reason then with anyone cutting the bodies on the cut line not making tech.
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#31 Bucky

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 10:52 AM

Dang I guess Im old and out of touch. Weve got bumpers identifying as splitters these days. Any idea what pronouns we should use here?

On a serious note, I do like Eds explanation solely because it lets us continue to cut on the line and remain legal.
Aaron Rothstein

#32 Hot Slots

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 12:31 PM

So the taped area in this photo is considered the bumper?

 

16474518325641443402267812861757.jpg


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#33 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 12:42 PM

Folks....the cut line that everyone is referring to on the Titan stock cars or COT is the splitter.
The actual bumper is above the splitter based on my conversations with the manufacturer. With that being the case there should be no reason then with anyone cutting the bodies on the cut line not making tech.

 

So... the body already has a front diaplane. Just add the wings and you'll have a nifty body for your Saturday wing car classes.   ;)


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#34 Marcus P1 Raceway

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 01:10 PM

I won't be surprised if at the Pinellas race we have some Funny Cars lined up on the grid!😂
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Marcus Ramos
 
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#35 Jay Guard

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 01:52 PM

Good explanation about the splitter vs bumper, cutting at the cut line, or even a bit above, should easily be within the specs.

 

Marcus: Unfortunately IMO they are all looking pretty "Funny Car" like these days.  :D


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#36 Bucky

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 03:12 PM

Just a thought, but maybe we can apply the minimum size of a front wheel .500 to front wheel stickers and be clear stickers must be round and the bottom cant be flat to help avoid people slamming the front of the car too low. The rule doesnt presently require roundness or a minimum size for sticker fronts.

3.1.20 Sticker front wheels are allowed but if you use actual front wheels, they must be those made specifically for scale racing and have a metal or molded plastic hub and a rubber tire and be a minimum .500" diameter. No wing car stamped tire thingies allowed.
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#37 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 16 March 2022 - 03:58 PM

Just a thought, but maybe we can apply the minimum size of a front wheel .500 to front wheel stickers and be clear stickers must be round and the bottom cant be flat to help avoid people slamming the front of the car too low. The rule doesnt presently require roundness or a minimum size for sticker fronts.

3.1.20 Sticker front wheels are allowed but if you use actual front wheels, they must be those made specifically for scale racing and have a metal or molded plastic hub and a rubber tire and be a minimum .500" diameter. No wing car stamped tire thingies allowed.

 

 

That's a good idea.

 

Bucky 4 President


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#38 dalek

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Posted 17 March 2022 - 08:10 AM

My 0.02 cents
I don't think we have to change the bumper rule in Nascar, if you want to use the RTR body cut below the line and you get 1/8. Especially for PRO-RACERS who can do wonders in other areas, it won't be difficult to find 1/8 bumper.

 

Marcus's post makes it pretty clear that if he is tech'ing a car's body, he would be measuring the splitter for the required 1/8", even though the rules use the word bumper to refer to the front-most part of a car's body.

 

 

 

Folks....the cut line that everyone is referring to on the Titan stock cars or COT is the splitter.
The actual bumper is above the splitter based on my conversations with the manufacturer. With that being the case there should be no reason then with anyone cutting the bodies on the cut line not making tech.

 

Since the "technical" front bumper is more than 1/8" tall, you could cut the splitter off completely and still have a 1/8" bumper.

 

But I assume everyone would agree that to remove any portion of the splitter (as viewed from above) would be "cutting into the top of the body".  The rules say you can't do this.

 

But you could remove all of the vertical portion of the splitter, basically knife-edging it.  Ed's post seems to indicate that he would consider the body to be legal.

 

 

 

 

Dang I guess Im old and out of touch. Weve got bumpers identifying as splitters these days. Any idea what pronouns we should use here?

On a serious note, I do like Eds explanation solely because it lets us continue to cut on the line and remain legal.

 

FWIW, the FNRS rules refer to the back of the body as the rear bumper/valance. 

 

We could refer to the front of the body as the front valance and it must be at least 1/8".

 

 

 

 

So the taped area in this photo is considered the bumper?

 

 

Yes.



#39 Hot Slots

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Posted 17 March 2022 - 10:35 AM

In my opinion a bumper should be vertical up and down, the front bumper on the rtr body is angled forward making the 1/8th shorter vertically, I belive the splitter should be 1/8th, I've used 2 different Nascar bodies 1 at each raceway, I have zero brand association, I use what's faster and I'll follow any rule put forward.
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#40 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 17 March 2022 - 01:07 PM

The cut line is on the "splitter" ... not the bumper.  And if you cut at the bottom of the cut line, you'll have an 1/8" vertical bumper/splitter/valance.  

 

And if I was tech director that day ... that's what I  - like Marcus - would measure.  

 

Doesn't mean I'm right.  But I do think that's the intent of the rule.  And, I think it's the intent of the manufacturer or he wouldn't have made the cutline at exactly 1/8".

 

And, yes, there needs to be some agreement on this.


Rollin Isbell
 


#41 Bucky

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Posted 17 March 2022 - 03:48 PM

My preference is the Ed/RTR interpretation, but its not a huge deal either way for me.

Based on photos of cars and my observations from the first two races the vast majority of stock cars raced did not have a 1/8 front splitter/bumper and would illegal under the interpretation that the splitter is the bumper.

Racers need to know how this rule will be enforced to avoid upsetting anyone at tech for trying to use a body that was previously allowed through tech. It would also be nice to have time to replace and test new bodies if thats whats called for.
Aaron Rothstein

#42 dalek

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Posted 17 March 2022 - 05:21 PM

When I tech'ed the cars at Melbourne, in order to not cause excessive delay to the day, NASCAR front splitter height was one of the specs I didn't check.
 
I also didn't check for hollow axles, or that every tire was no wider than .810", or that there was not a single grind mark on any chassis, or that no motor hung 2 thou below the chassis, etc.  Just not enough time for one person to do all of those things and still have the race day move along at a reasonable pace.  Now that I think about it, I didn't even check to see if anyone was running ball bearings (oops, I really should have checked that).
 
However, I did check for 1" across the back of the bodies and all of the other specs that I felt could have a significant effect regarding the performance of a car.
 
In three places in the rules, the word "guideline" is used.  I see the 1/8" front splitter spec as more of a guideline than a rule.  If you bounce a car because the front splitter is a few thou less than 1/8", I feel like that's being a little too strict.
 
The Titan cut line doesn't give you much wiggle room (in order to grind a little off of the body if it ends up dragging on the track) so that's why I feel like 1/16" splitter height would be a more practical spec.
 


#43 dalek

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Posted 17 March 2022 - 07:02 PM

BTW:  If any racers want to run Kelly Bulldogs or Speed Rubbers, they'll pass tech inspection if I'm teching the cars b/c I don't have any idea what they look like.  LOL
 
Are they easily recognizable if you know what you're looking for?
 
Are they still being made?
 


#44 Hot Slots

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Posted 17 March 2022 - 07:50 PM

Hahaha, I have no idea what they are either Dale.
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#45 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 17 March 2022 - 07:52 PM

 

BTW:  If any racers want to run Kelly Bulldogs or Speed Rubbers, they'll pass tech inspection if I'm teching the cars b/c I don't have any idea what they look like.  LOL
 
Are they easily recognizable if you know what you're looking for?
 
Are they still being made?
 

 

 

At some point you have to rely on people to have some level of honor.  

 

 

I remember the first time I became aware of the Kelly Bulldog tires.  Johnny Banks had them on his car back in about 2009 when the hillclimb that's now at Fast Eddie's was at Phoenix Raceway in Jacksonville.  A couple of us noticed that our cars that handled perfectly were suddenly crazy loose when we rotated to the lane that Johnny had just left.  Seems that the Kelly Bulldog tires kind of sucked all the spray glue off of the lane.


Rollin Isbell
 


#46 Bucky

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 03:59 AM

I dont know if Ive ever seen a pair of speed rubber or Bulldogs in person, but I think the telltale sign of their use is that the track gets really loose for everyone not using them. The IRRA forum has some talk about WD-40 and burn tests, so I assume its hard to identify them.

Any word on the bumper issue?
Aaron Rothstein

#47 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 08:09 AM

"...... Any word on the bumper issue?"

 

 

Well ... since the next race is in Pinellas Park and Fast Eddie will be handling Tech duties ... From his reply - and Dale's interpretation - I'm guessing that you don't need a downturn at all on the diaplane/splitter thing.  

 

Just don't cut into the top of the diaplane/splitter thing.

 

If I was racing ... I'd do just that and reinforce it with a wing-car diaplane under the Lexan so it will survive the multiple wall shots I'm bound to subject the car to as it de-slots at the end of the "Long John" backstretch.

 

 

But for all other 4" Stock Car bodies, I think you'll still need to maintain an 1/8" front bumper as stated in the rules.


Edited by Wizard Of Iz, 20 March 2022 - 08:10 AM.
Added the last sentence.

Rollin Isbell
 


#48 dalek

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 11:49 AM

IMO, a significant problem with the NASCAR front bumper rule (whether it's a bumper or splitter) is that the top of the Titan splitter (bumper in the rules) is not at all well defined.  IOW, you can't really tell on the Titan, where the top of the splitter meets the bottom of the bumper.
 
So, after cutting my Titan bodies on the cutline, then measuring up, I felt like the top edge of the splitter would probably be somewhere around 1/8", making the front bumper/splitter legal.  
 
Actually, the rules don't specifically say that the 1/8" minimum front bumper is only the vertical portion.  In reality, the top of a front bumper would be above that.  The rules just say "All bodies must have 1/8" front bumper".
 
If the above makes sense, then requiring 1/16" minimum height of the vertical area (bumper or splitter of a NASCAR body), would generally uphold the original intent of the rule while dealing with it's fuzziness.
 
Just my .02.

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#49 dalek

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 05:13 PM

If the BoD approves 1/16" of vertical material across the front, for the Titan, I assume that the same should apply to the other two approved cars -- the OS-237 and the RF Dodge.
 
If you see any downsides, speak up so Ed and Marcus have your input.
 


#50 Bucky

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Posted 20 March 2022 - 06:33 PM

A change to 1/16 seems unnecessary if we accept RTRs explanation that there is a splitter on the front and a bumper. The RTR does have an extra step on the front compared to the OS body, so its fair to say the intent was to have a bumper and splitter. I compared the height of the hood between the RTR cut on the cut line and an OS cut to have a 1/8 bumper and theyre extremely close if not identical.

If someone cuts more of the front splitter off the RTR theyre likely to create problems with bending it under and dragging, so theres little reward to cut it down further.
Aaron Rothstein





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