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Stainless surgical tubing as a chassis component


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#1 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 02 December 2020 - 06:46 PM

Quick question as I have always been under the impression that it could only be used as pin tubing. Over the last couple of years I have witnessed numerous builds using stainless surgical tube for varying chassis components. The way the rules are defined I do not see where this would be legal, however maybe I missed the amendment.


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#2 tonyp

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Posted 02 December 2020 - 06:57 PM

Pin tubing only.


Example of where it was used for another purpose?

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#3 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 02 December 2020 - 07:01 PM

As a pan.
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#4 tonyp

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Posted 02 December 2020 - 07:03 PM

Would not be legal.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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First IM Nationals Champion
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#5 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 02 December 2020 - 07:06 PM

Thank you.


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#6 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 03 December 2020 - 01:51 AM

A note in passing:  This is a good example of why, even if I had a nearby commercial track, my participation would be unlikely.  Reading some of the rules, it appears to me that the focus is so skewed towards parity that innovation is stifled.  The amateur engineer in me would be frustrated.  My raw materials bins hold a range of tubing sizes in stainless steel, aluminum and brass, sheets of spring steel, stainless steel, brass and nickel silver and bar stock in aluminum, teflon and brass.  My current favorite chassis wire is spring tempered stainless.

 

I returned to slots 25 years ago after a 30 year absence.  The local game was 1/32 scale cars.  Aside from prototype appearance, current competitive 1/32 machinery is completely different from the cars 1995. Innovation by RTR manufacturers, component (motors, gears, wheels and tires) advances,3D printing  and rules governing international meets and proxy races has driven this.  Has there been a corresponding evolution in the commercial track scene?

 

EM


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#7 vfr750

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Posted 03 December 2020 - 02:06 AM

Hi Al, 1/24 retro racing has evolved, when it started the chassis bore some relationship to those I used to read about in the magazines and try to copy. Modern retro chassis are very different it fact, as I see it the only retro component now is the body. I stopped racing this class because it's appeal was its relationship to the past.

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#8 Dan Searcy

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Posted 03 December 2020 - 10:02 PM

Stainless steel tubing is used on many drag chassis, but not legal for retro as far as I know.  I don't know if it is surgical tubing.  Maybe wall thickness is the difference?  JDS offers stainless in 4 diameters, .050", .065", .072" and .082".  It's available at your raceway.  Not sure what the wall thickness is though.


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#9 John Streisguth

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 07:41 AM

Not a matter of parity, it's more of a "lowest denominator" so that the technology doesn't get out of hand.  If materials and techniques were unlimited, you would end up with something more akin to a Eurosport.  


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#10 tonyp

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 08:13 AM

Exactly.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
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First IM Nationals Champion
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#11 bbr

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 03:32 PM

Would be interesting to see what builders can come up with if construction methods and materials were not restricted, just using the physical framework rules of retro.
Would not be legal in any retro racing group,,, but an interesting design exercise and maybe a proxy event,,,,,, maybe something for me to sponsor after this pandemic...... I be thinking,,
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#12 old & gray

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 04:29 PM

Hi Al, 1/24 retro racing has evolved, when it started the chassis bore some relationship to those I used to read about in the magazines and try to copy. Modern retro chassis are very different it fact, as I see it the only retro component now is the body. I stopped racing this class because it's appeal was its relationship to the past.

 

Chassis design evolves to match track design and from lessons learned through experience. My cars from the  late 60's (retro target) had heavier more powerful motors than these current FK motors. The tracks had sharper curve transitions and the straights often had to be driven to avoid the launch ramps. Cars also had to clear the track by .063 in front (how could they ever handle?) and we didn't have TI 22 wedges for bodies. When you made changes in your car a positive result was measured in multiple tenths of a second. Now it is measured in a couple of hundredths of a second. 

 

As I started back I had a choice: six guys racing the wing cars I had loved and raced OR two dozen guys racing  retro. My choice was comradery over technology. 


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#13 MSwiss

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 04:45 PM

Would be interesting to see what builders can come up with if construction methods and materials were not restricted, just using the physical framework rules of retro.
Would not be legal in any retro racing group,,, but an interesting design exercise and maybe a proxy event,,,,,, maybe something for me to sponsor after this pandemic...... I be thinking,,

It would depend if the cars were to be run on a flat track, or a King.

 

On a flat track, the chassis most likely would look like a current Eurosport chassis, most likely heavier, because the bodies aren't as aerodynamic.

 

And with a King, it would depend on what kind.

 

What you would run on the Piranha Gerding King would be much different than what you would want for the Tom Thumb American King.

 

On the Piranha King, not sure you could improve much, other than strength in a crash.


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#14 Cap Henry

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 07:49 PM

Where does it say you cant use it? Its an allowable material, it doesnt specify it has to be used as pin tubing

#15 tonyp

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 07:59 PM

Bronze: rod. Steel: wire, pin tubing, and commercial guide tongues

Right here.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
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American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
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#16 tonyp

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 08:02 PM

You are allowed to use steel wire, pin tubing and guide tongues.

Steel pin tubing used for any use than to hold the body on is no longer pin tubing.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#17 Cap Henry

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Posted 04 December 2020 - 08:44 PM

I follow Tony.

Maybe Im on my own but Ive always called any tubing pin tubing no matter its application. I should add, Im not effected by this, I built a car using it for a customer but its still here so itll get changed before shipping. But stuff is out there and has been getting raced with it.
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#18 Dan Ebert

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Posted 06 December 2020 - 11:16 PM

Not to split hairs or make waves but,

Chassis Materials:
The following materials are permitted for use in chassis construction:
 
Brass – sheet, rod, and tube. Brass is defined as generic "yellow brasscontaining copper and zinc, with minimal amounts of tin and lead, yellowish in color, non-plated, non-painted, non-coated (except for clear coating to prevent rust). Nickel/German "silver" alloys are not allowed.
Bronze – rod.
Steel – wire, pin tubing, and commercial guide tongues and guide tongue braces/doublers.

3e. Floating pin tubes inside another tube are allowed.

 

So after carefully reading the rules and your explanation.  Stainless tubing is not allowed for anything but pin tubing.   But Brass tubing would be allowed for pans. 


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#19 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 06 December 2020 - 11:49 PM

Idle curiosity  Is stainless steel wire deemed to be steel?


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#20 tonyp

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 07:24 AM


So after carefully reading the rules and your explanation. Stainless tubing is not allowed for anything but pin tubing. But Brass tubing would be allowed for pans.

Yes

Stainless steel wire is steel wire.
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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#21 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 01:36 PM

When we switched from Pittman motors to rewinding Mabuchi's  we were trying all kinds of chassis. Sandy Gross ran into Jim Russell who wanted to start Team Russkit East. He gave Sandy a car to try out that was built by I think Mike Morrissey. It was a what would be  a jail door chassis. It was constructed with stainless steel pin tubing. I went to a dental supply company and purchased some of the tubing and made my own version.  I have to laugh because the first  "retro" car i ever saw or built was with stainless tubing in 1966.


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#22 Richard G With

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 02:07 PM

Unless you're talking about the CanAm Plus class, there is still the 100 gram minimum weight.

I usually wind up with complete CamAm cars a bit under that and have to add lead on the pans.

So, I don't see an advantage to tubes as a pan material. Tubing as a frame rail seems suicidally fragile to me. Sheet brass or solid brass wire keeps the necessary weight down low.

 

And what's wrong with parity? That to me is the genius of Retro. If you want unbridled innovation, bring back the anglewinder class with ProSlot motors and have at it.

But, hardly anyone seems interested in that configuration. If you don't like the rules, it's always possible to form a local group and make up your own rules.

But Retro by its very nature resists innovation, tilting the playing field toward good preparation and "driving". In line drive and sealed motors will always limit how fast the cars go. 

 

The other beauty of the Retro (IRRA, R.E.T.R.O. and the California)  rules to me is that it's possible to race all over the country and exchange design and building techniques that reach a wide audience.  


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#23 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 07 December 2020 - 03:23 PM


 

 

So, I don't see an advantage to tubes as a pan material. Tubing as a frame rail seems suicidally fragile to me. Sheet brass or solid brass wire keeps the necessary weight down low.

 

 

 

If strength is a concern, 0.050" brass rod and 3/32" OD X 1/16" ID steel tubing will be very close in weight.  The steel tube will be much, much stronger and far less likely to bend than the brass rod - not germane to these rules but one of the things that should be considered in unrestricted builds.


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#24 Phil Hackett

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Posted 08 December 2020 - 09:06 PM

Just curious: how do the inspector(s) determine whether a rail is tubing or not?

 

The stainless material is easy to spot.


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#25 gfox

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 10:02 AM

 Maybe to the letter this 'ruling' is legit but cars of many builders have been run like this for over 2 years in IRRA 'Premier' events.

 At this point do we really need to disenfranchise any more racers? The current RH situation along with decisions like this are driving people away from retro and we're not gaining any new ones.  

 


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