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Stainless surgical tubing as a chassis component


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#26 Dominator

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 09:36 PM

Stainless is easy to detect, just put a magnet to the rails. If it doesn't stick its stainless.
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#27 JHMerriman

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 09:39 AM

Stainless steel still has some magnetic properties.

The use of stainless steel tubing as main rails has been going on for a long time. I experimented with the idea 7-8 years ago, I could never get the results I wanted. Im glad someone figured it out.
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#28 Cap Henry

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 11:37 AM

James is correct. Its magnetic. Stainless wire, not hollow is legal.

The issue presented is the hollow tubing not being used for pin tubes.

#29 Jimmy Williams

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Posted 06 January 2021 - 06:56 PM

Sorry to bring up a "dead" thread, but I've been dwelling on this too much to not say anything. I have two responses below that will be separated by a dashed line. I wrote the first one a month ago when this thread started but never posted because I never thought the time was right, but its doing me no good not posting it. The second response is after I found out something interesting and did not want to rewrite the first response to include it.
------------
First of all, I just want to say that it is painfully obvious whose chassis designs we are talking about and I believe that the people who run those chassis designs are completely justified in running them.
This chassis design is almost 3 years old and not once has its legality been questioned publicly. I remember almost 2 years when Chubby first received a chassis of this design he immediately questioned its legality and went to Noose, unfortunately in person so I couldn't get a screenshot, and asked if it was legal. Noose replied saying that it was legal as long as the main rails aren’t tubing. This is the ruling that I have been basing it on ever since then, as that is what an IRRA BoD has decided what is legal. And for that to potentially be wrong almost two years later is insulting to everyone who owns and has built one since then.
It was under my understanding that this chassis design using steel tubing was common knowledge among the builders that have built one of them. I personally know chassis builders who never thought twice about its legality and for it to now be deemed illegal is a blow to all of us. Not only do I own 16 chassis built with them and many more built for other racers and for me to fix something that is now “illegal” is going to cost me countless hours and dollars in shipping and potentially having to replace bearings in the rear if I have to tumble them, which would be well into the hundreds of dollars.
If a component of the reason for it being illegal is its readiness, than that is just not true. Every track that I have attempted to buy from has had plenty in stock, through WRP, JDS, and Mid-America. I have bought the tubing in front of Noose on multiple occasions, with him being fully aware that I have never used steel tubing as pin tubing and I only build IRRA chassis. I have ran this style chassis 23 times against the “tech nazi” Noose and have podiumed plenty of times with them and never been questioned on its legality. Same goes for multiple people that race out in Ohio going through Eric Balicki as a tech director (who I believe is more strict than Noose) with no problems. This includes 2 R4s and the RBB earlier this year. On top of this is whoever does tech down south in the GRRR and the Retro Rumble, where I know they have been ran.
This situation is exactly like something that happened 6 years ago where Matt Bruce won Can-Am at the Fall Brawl (IIRC) with an interior taped to the chassis instead of on the body. Someone had started a discussion on Facebook questioning its legality which led to a whole long discussion of whether it was legal or not and if he should be disqualified. But Matt explained that he had brought the car up to Noose prior to tech asking if it was legal to which he said it was. So for Matt to potentially be disqualified for being told something just for other people to say the opposite was ridiculous and led to an amendment in the rules allowing interiors to be taped to the chassis for all classes but Stock Car. This is actually what I would propose as a change, we do exactly what Noose had told Chubby 2 years ago; allow it as a chassis component but not for main rails. It would be easy to spot a car with steel tubing as main rails as the color is different to piano wire and it does not solder as well. I truly believe that we will not see an influx of chassis built with the tubing except for maybe can-am plus, it is not a game changer, the chassis concept itself is the game changer. Just like with interiors on the chassis, everybody switched to it following the rule change but now you will see more people running the interior on the body instead. I do for can-am and f1. It would do more good for IRRA to let it be than to deem it illegal.
I believe IRRA has a much more dire situation on its hands than this, and we are all aware of what it is.
------------
This response is after I had found some wording on another thread completely unrelated to this, with the screenshot below.
Tubing.PNG
By Mike Swiss' wording, tubing is allowed as a main rail. So what is it? We have three BoD saying something different: Noose says it can be a pan but not a main rail, Swiss says it can be a main rail, and Tony P says it can't be either a pan or a main rail. Now the suggestion that I had made for a rule change gets even more confusing. I just wish that this situation can be handled in a way that does not hurt me. Like I said, I, and many other builders, do not want to recall many or all of the chassis they have made for the past couple of years all because of something as small as this. This on top of everything else going on is making me lose all interest in retro. I'm simply tired of it, because I seemingly can't go by anyone's word anymore. What next is going to be illegal after I was told that it was fine?

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#30 MSwiss

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Posted 06 January 2021 - 07:45 PM

Of course tubing is allowed as a main rail.

Brass tubing.

How could you tell the difference between it and brass rod?

Stainless tubing was never intended to be used as main rails.

I think it only made it's way into the rules, to begin with, was because Koford marketed it as pin tubing, for floating mounts on wing chassis.

As far as stainless tubing used as constructed pans, or in other structural applications, I never gave it more than a few seconds of thought.

It's inferior solderability would never have me consider using it.

It's not even a real unique size.

Anywhere you would use it as a spacer, you could use .047" wire, instead.

Maybe just a little less of it, length wise, to compensate for weight, and a little more solder if that extra .003" was somehow important.

As far it being used as pans in some Andrew Ford chassis, in my personal, non-IRRA opinion, since I don't see it as a performance advantage, I say it should be allowed, and the IRRA suspends him for 5 years, or we/they tear down his still, his choice.

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#31 Noose

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Posted 06 January 2021 - 07:52 PM

Sorry but you NEVER asked me about this Jimmy. The rules are clear. Pin tubing only.

When I’m teching 30-60 cars at a race and I missed the use of this material then maybe I should quit but I won’t.

Obviously your decision to not race in the series this year because you were tired of being taken out by “backmarkers” (you know those other racers in the A main) is also utter nonsense.

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#32 Jimmy Williams

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Posted 06 January 2021 - 08:25 PM

I don't mind apologizing, I'm sorry that I went on Chubby's word and never approached you about it but I was just really dumbfounded about it when this thread was created because I have never actually looked at the rules, I went on someone's words and apparently they were wrong. Even though I did check in with him and he did recall this, so that leaves me confused.

And just a remark on brass tubing being a main rail, why list all of the sizes as a possible tubing? I've never seen brass tubing smaller than 062, through K&S or McMaster. It was a really weird way of wording it.



#33 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 07 January 2021 - 02:28 AM

It's inferior solderability would never have me consider using it.

 
It solders very nicely using StaBrite solder and flux along with routine cleaning procedures.  
 
EM


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#34 MSwiss

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Posted 07 January 2021 - 09:20 AM

I never said it doesn't solder.

I use it all the time.

Just not as well.

If I have the choice of using something that solders OK, or something that solders better, I'll go with better.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 07 January 2021 - 09:43 AM

I've never seen brass tubing smaller than 062, through K&S or McMaster.

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Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#36 Mr. M

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Posted 07 January 2021 - 01:22 PM

What is the perceived benefit of stainless tubing for pans or main rails?
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#37 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 07 January 2021 - 08:31 PM

I never said it doesn't solder.

I use it all the time.

Just not as well.

If I have the choice of using something that solders OK, or something that solders better, I'll go with better.

 

Perhaps we have different criteria. In my experience with both SS tubing and spring tempered SS wire (McMaster) it will bend severely before the joint will fail. In addition, SS (and other steels) are much poorer conductors of heat than brass thus the applied heat and therefore the solder is more likely to dot where you want it.

 

EM


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#38 slotracer43

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 09:05 AM

So after carefully reading the rules and your explanation. Stainless tubing is not allowed for anything but pin tubing. But Brass tubing would be allowed for pans.
Yes
Stainless steel wire is steel wire.


One of the things the IRRA prides itself in, and has contributed to it's long term success is not changing its rule set. I don't understand why now it is necessary to punish builders and racers who have used steel pin tubing on there chassis. It is listed as a legal material. It doesn't specifically say it needs to have pins in it and hold up a body. Retro has become more and more preoccupied with motors lately, let's let the builders be creative with the rules as they are written.
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#39 kvanpelt

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Posted 08 January 2021 - 11:20 PM

What is the perceived benefit of stainless tubing for pans or main rails?

Have any of the builders that use ss tubing shared the theory of its advantages?


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#40 Ecurie Martini

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Posted 09 January 2021 - 12:26 PM

Have any of the builders that use ss tubing shared the theory of it's advantages?

 

I routinely build with SS tubing and rod but not to the rules under discussion here so I cannot speak to its advantages in this application but, from general principals it is stronger and lighter on an "equivalent dimension" basis than brass and much lighter for comparable strength.  As an example, a stress that would result in a brass rod being permanently bent might cause a slight flexing of a similar steel part with immediate return to original state when the stress is removed.  Aside from ease of fabrication (cutting and bending) brass chassis components make  no more sense to me than brass axles would.  As a further example - one often sees brass rear brackets reinforced with a "U" of wire.  A steel part of equivalent dimensions would not need this treatment.

 

EM

 

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#41 JerseyJohn

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 11:48 AM

Not a matter of parity, it's more of a "lowest denominator" so that the technology doesn't get out of hand.  If materials and techniques were unlimited, you would end up with something more akin to a Eurosport.  

 

Then it shouldn't be allowed at all, John. It's used predominantly as flexi pin tubes. All or ban it totally.


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#42 tonyp

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Posted 11 January 2021 - 07:41 AM

It’s only allowed to be used for pin tubes, nothing else.
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#43 Matt Bruce

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Posted 18 January 2021 - 05:57 PM

Sorry Im late to this thread. If I may make a suggestion to the BoD. Not really much we can do about the fact this has been going on for quite sometime. So my question is how does the IRRA approach this now?You need to release a statement like: Any frames using steel tubing other than for pin tubes is deemed illegal as per the rules. Frames previously raced can only complete legally if the steel tubing is replaced with brass tubing or piano wire or will be deemed illegal to compete under IRRA sanctions.
Post it under the IRRA rules thread so everyone knows and can change their frames if they are in violation. Last thing we wanna see is people not knowing and showing up to race and getting tossed out of tech or getting disqualified.
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#44 Jay Guard

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Posted 19 January 2021 - 08:52 AM

I think that the root cause of the problem is that "pin tubing" is listed as a chassis material, which can easily be read as an approved material rather than indicating the fact that it can only be used as a pin tube for body mounting purposes.  A minor change to the wording, as well as a statement as Matt Bruce mentioned above would certainly put this issue to rest.


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#45 Cap Henry

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Posted 19 January 2021 - 10:02 AM

To answer the question of what the advantage was, it was simply lighter on a non structural area.
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#46 kvanpelt

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Posted 19 January 2021 - 12:12 PM

To answer the question of what the advantage was, it was simply lighter on a non structural area.

 

Thanks, Cap!

 

So it is your understanding it is not being used for main rails? 


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#47 old & gray

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Posted 19 January 2021 - 12:22 PM

So, how much is the protest fee to have a chassis rail cut to determine if it is hollow? 


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#48 Cap Henry

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Posted 19 January 2021 - 02:58 PM

So it is your understanding it is not being used for main rails? 


The cars I saw it was used on the outer side pans. Worth a couple grams weight savings over solid wire when you consider 3/4 wires per side.

Don't need to cut the wire to test it, just give it a good squeeze with pliers LOL.


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#49 Dallas Racer

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Posted 20 January 2021 - 02:02 AM

I'm not sure I understand the advantage of using it.


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#50 Cap Henry

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Posted 20 January 2021 - 07:34 AM

It was lighter.





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