Jump to content




Photo

New old idea


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 PCH Parts Express

PCH Parts Express

    Posting Leader

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,287 posts
  • Joined: 27-December 09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 March 2021 - 03:03 PM

Break out wing racing. Maybe call it SlowBilly 12. 

 

Basic rules for non-experts to understand. 

 

Any chassis

 

Any motor  (nothing bigger than a 12 is an option) 

 

Any body

 

The counter staff selects a fair break-out lap time. Not ideal. But somewhat vintage in nature. Run what ya brung. 

 

2 min on (or 3)....2 off (or three). 2 min heats will have closer finishes. 

 

This might become an incubator class. 

 


  • Eddie Fleming and Jesse Gonzales like this

Scott Salzberg
PCH Parts Express





#2 Dnytto

Dnytto

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 19 posts
  • Joined: 08-March 21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SoCal

Posted 13 March 2021 - 03:21 PM

RWB, run whatcha brung

I like it.

I was wondering this yesterday, why isn’t there a “catch-all” class with close lap times regardless of what you’re running. Sounds fun, I’d run it.

Yesterday at bpr there was a guy on the king that had 2-3 different cars that were completely different than my stuff but the lap times were within a tenth and i had so much fun that I reached out to a member on here to help get set up with a omb and lmp car just to get that race thrill again
  • Jesse Gonzales likes this
David Roman

#3 Brian Czeiner

Brian Czeiner

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 171 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tyler, TX

Posted 13 March 2021 - 03:33 PM

Or maybe do some qualifying laps and average the times for breakout? The psychology of qualifying could get real confusing. Do I want first lane pick or easier staying on the track. Hmm?


If it's not a Caveman, It's HISTORY!

 

cavemanbodeez@gmail.com         http://www.cavemanbodeez.com


#4 Pablo

Pablo

    Builder

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,974 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Johnson Bayou, Mississippi Gulf Coast

Posted 13 March 2021 - 03:37 PM

I don't believe in "break out" racing. It's NOT racing.

 

"Any body" LOL What body will they end up racing? LOL

Wing cars are designed to be FAST. If you want to go slower, turn down the volts.

 

I love "run what ya brung".

 

Just my opinion. Any idea that brings people to the raceway is a good idea. 

We used to race Deathstar motors with wing bodies at DND Raceway in Alabama every week and it was a ball. Kids, dads, moms, all there every week. Until a "brilliant" ex-racer ex-raceway manager showed up and ruined it by insisting the way to success was with S16D motors. Raceway closed down shortly thereafter.

 

"Any motor  (nothing bigger than a 12 is an option)"  OK a G7 motor is smaller than a G12 or X12 so you basically have an open class. Maybe this needs to be re-worded LOL

 

Scott, I like some of your ideas but they need refining. I think I just volunteered LOL


  • Jesse Gonzales likes this

Paul Wolcott


#5 John Luongo

John Luongo

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 145 posts
  • Joined: 01-August 16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Haverhill, MA

Posted 13 March 2021 - 03:45 PM

"run what ya brung" with a break out. interesting! and lots of fun! everybody has a spare parts "junk" draw in their pit box. whip something up! i know a racer who showed up one night with full air control on a nascar body. sides, rear and diaplane.


  • Pablo likes this

#6 Greg VanPeenen

Greg VanPeenen

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,169 posts
  • Joined: 26-March 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MI

Posted 13 March 2021 - 05:05 PM

Pablo, 

 

 Don't like break out racing. Then Don't DO IT! 

 

If these guys want to talk about or do break out racing that is their business. 

 

Have a nice day,

GVP


  • Tim Neja likes this

#7 John Luongo

John Luongo

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 145 posts
  • Joined: 01-August 16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Haverhill, MA

Posted 13 March 2021 - 05:42 PM

pablo, those grp 10 chassis with death star motors and wing car bodies must have been a blast! great way to introduce new racers to wing car racing.


  • Pablo likes this

#8 Bill Seitz

Bill Seitz

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Subscriber
  • Pip
  • 44 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tucson, AZ

Posted 13 March 2021 - 05:53 PM

I think breakout racing can work if the breakout is chosen appropriately for the intend racing class. Some raceways have imposed breakouts with stock motor classes to discourage hand selecting particularly fast motors and the clandestine modifications that tend to occur in these classes. I remember well the days of stock 16D racing where guys would buy several dozen motors to find the fastest one or two, and then turn comms and stacks and balance unbalanced stock arms. I've even been suspicious of de-winding in the days before Parma 16Ds (coating on newer arms kinda defeats de-winding). I was recently informed that some ingenious racers have figured out how to open the crimped-endbell motors (Hawk 7, for example) and swap out arms and magnets to get the fastest combination of several different FK motors. I have nothing against modifying motors to get the most out of them, although I do not consider that the intent of stock motor classes. Some years ago, I experimented with de-winding Johnson 16D arms to see how far I could go, but I never competed with them. I tried taking 40 turns off, but never succeeded before breaking the wire. I settled for de-winding 35 turns not realizing at the time this was half the turns. No wonder the comms unsoldered! Had one in a 60s vintage U-Go thingy chassis (very light) with a wing car body and had fun playing with Group 12 flexis.

 

Bill


  • Pablo, John Luongo and Jesse Gonzales like this

#9 Jesse Gonzales

Jesse Gonzales

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 621 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:AZ

Posted 13 March 2021 - 06:34 PM

"Run What You Brung" was the rule of the day in the old days, the technology was the limiting factor. everyone was hindered by the same things, melting endbells, melting epoxy, melting solder. No one ran any air control, basically open class with no air control other that a diaplane and a spoiler period. You will see 1971ish type cars cropping up with cobalt motors unless you segregate by magnet type. These cars will have to be driven but not just glue & punch.

 

look at the NCC rules.

 

Jesse


  • Pablo likes this

#10 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,082 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 13 March 2021 - 08:06 PM

"run what ya brung" with a break out. interesting! and lots of fun! everybody has a spare parts "junk" draw in their pit box. whip something up! i know a racer who showed up one night with full air control on a nascar body. sides, rear and diaplane.

 

John, was his name Dick?  :laugh2:  :laugh2:


  • John Luongo likes this
Bill Fernald
 
I intend to live forever!  So far, so good.  :laugh2:  :laugh2: 

#11 old & gray

old & gray

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 889 posts
  • Joined: 15-April 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CT

Posted 13 March 2021 - 09:20 PM

"run what ya brung" with a break out. interesting! and lots of fun! everybody has a spare parts "junk" draw in their pit box. whip something up! i know a racer who showed up one night with full air control on a nascar body. sides, rear and diaplane.

 

 

 

John, was his name Dick?  :laugh2:  :laugh2:

 

I remember a local "money" race which started as a flexi chassis, S16D can, and a Stock car body.

The raceway owner wanted to be "inclusive" so the motor rule changed to include wasp arms in C cans.

Then since some bodies were "better"than others the rule was changed to "added air control is OK".

Then there was the new chassis that was introduced last week so we just let "any steel chassis" to run.

 

All this happened over the last two weeks before the race, so every time you came to the track the rules were changed. On the Wednesday before  the race, a racer showed up to practice his car was a  laser cut steel frame, gp27 motor, and a full winged NASCAR body. He announced it was a production steel chassis, a C can based motor, and a NASCAR body with a little air improvement.

 

While it was an over the top response a set of written rules were posted in the next two days. The racer's initials were not DP. 


  • John Luongo and Bill Seitz like this
Bob Schlain

#12 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,082 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 13 March 2021 - 11:32 PM

I raced "run what you brung" from 1967-69, when I moved due to an out-of-state job offer. If you weren't fast enough, you brought a faster car to the next race. Soon, everybody was racing a Champion RTRs with a 707 36D motor. To be different after awhile, I built a Pittcan powered car with an International chassis. It wasn't faster than the Champion cars, but it ran competitively with them. 


  • Jesse Gonzales likes this
Bill Fernald
 
I intend to live forever!  So far, so good.  :laugh2:  :laugh2: 

#13 NSwanberg

NSwanberg

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,562 posts
  • Joined: 01-April 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canton, MI

Posted 14 March 2021 - 01:28 AM

We are doing two breakout groups in the Sunday sportsmen race at Downriver Speedway on the Gerding KIng. JK-21, Hawk 7,10-36, JK Bodies, with a 4.5 second breakout. We have some racers that seem like they want to breakout as much as possible.

 

My idea is this; If you breakout your race is done, however, you then get moved up to the group that chose to run in the 4.00 second breakout group.

 

So far no one thinks this is a good idea.


Remember the Steube bar! (ask Raisin)
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RACEWAY!!
"The denial of denial is the first sign of denial." Hank, from Corner Gas
Nelson Swanberg 5618

Peace be with all of us and good racing for the rest of us.
Have controller. Will travel. Slot Car Heaven


#14 John Luongo

John Luongo

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 145 posts
  • Joined: 01-August 16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Haverhill, MA

Posted 14 March 2021 - 05:56 AM

 

 

 

I remember a local "money" race which started as a flexi chassis, S16D can, and a Stock car body.

The raceway owner wanted to be "inclusive" so the motor rule changed to include wasp arms in C cans.

Then since some bodies were "better"than others the rule was changed to "added air control is OK".

Then there was the new chassis that was introduced last week so we just let "any steel chassis" to run.

 

All this happened over the last two weeks before the race, so every time you came to the track the rules were changed. On the Wednesday before  the race, a racer showed up to practice his car was a  laser cut steel frame, gp27 motor, and a full winged NASCAR body. He announced it was a production steel chassis, a C can based motor, and a NASCAR body with a little air improvement.

 

While it was an over the top response a set of written rules were posted in the next two days. The racer's initials were not DP. 

i dont remember dp doing that. but, he built race cars to win. every aspect of that car was looked at. some changes worked, some didnt. nascars smokie yunick once stated that half the nascar rule book was written because of him. he addressed everything! story goes that when his chevelle body didnt quite fit the nascar templates, he offered to check a stock chevelle at random in the parking lot. the templates fit, just like on his race car. unknown to nascar, he had parked a stock, similarly modified body chevelle in the parking lot for them to check "at random".

modelville used to run a great and well represented event called the "al stevens race". grp 10 chassis, hand out s16D motors and hand out gears. about as close to "even" racing as you could get. motors were installed at the parts counter and cars were impounded immediately. very competitive and fun.

racers will try things. its part of it. i even painted the ends of my 16d magnets zombie green once just to see what happened. funny thing is, i think the car went faster.



#15 Revtor

Revtor

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 179 posts
  • Joined: 09-August 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern NJ

Posted 14 March 2021 - 10:05 AM

--(My less experienced viewpoint)--

The discussion seems to have turned into RWyB and how it evolves into an open class type of thing.  But thats where the breakout time comes in.  Want to run a G7 motor, have at it.  It does you no good when laps under 3.5 don't count for example.

 

breakout is Racing, because the cars will be close and you will have a situation that really rewards practice time and driving skill, rather than searching for the best out of 50 motors time.  My local track had a 5 second breakout, no wing bodies allowed.  two rules!!    Close fun racing and it is fun to see such a variety of cars in the pits.  tuning for handling, balance and consistency.

 

I dunno, I never raced at any high level of competition in 24th scale.  But this could attract (as mentioned above) the guys with some older cars who don't want to be bothered to wade through 10 pages of rules and 10 phone calls to figure out what to even buy to get started in some other classes.  They just want to find the gears that get them to breakout and have at it for an hour with other racers.  Might just inspire them to jump back in full-on and buy some new cars!!

 

~Steve


  • Tim Neja and Jesse Gonzales like this
~ Steve Maietta

#16 Lowflyer

Lowflyer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 19 posts
  • Joined: 26-March 20
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Aalborg, Denmark

Posted 14 March 2021 - 12:48 PM

We have tried Racing With break out lap time, but like anything else, some like some don’t.

we have also tried Racing 3 classes together, 2 slot and one hardbody. For each class you races to reach a certain goal, for the first race, after That , the winning number of laps from the first race, was targit for 2.nd race, etc.

above That targit you Got 100 points + a percentage of the laps above. Under the targit you Got 100 point minus a percentage of the laps missing in reaching the targit.


  • Robert BG and John Luongo like this
Thorkild Hjorth

#17 Thom

Thom

    Backmarker

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Joined: 06-March 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Omaha

Posted 14 March 2021 - 01:46 PM

Trackmate has a built in system for breakout, you put in the minimum time allowed and if you are too fast, instead of a beep or engine rev you hear a terrible crash sound and it doesn’t count that lap!
  • NSwanberg likes this
Thom Asay

#18 Robert BG

Robert BG

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 427 posts
  • Joined: 12-May 16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southern NJ and Bulgaria

Posted 27 March 2021 - 05:07 AM

I really think there's room for a run what you got class...........It'd definitely get some guys back who stopped racing while helping.new guys get started.

 

But instead of breakout times  you could use a handicapped system like golf. I've found breakout racing doesnt give you that flat out running on the edge feeling whereas a handicap would. Also it would be flexible,if a car or class is dominating then you just increase the handicap by adding weight or requiring them to run a higher percentage of laps over the slower guys...........Or both.

 

There's a few ways to do it,say a Box 12 is on average 20% faster than a group F or older car. Then they could be required to run 20% more laps or you could stagger the start based on speed. Or if they are close it could be a weight penalty etc. As far as the older oddball parts bin cars go. Their qualifying times would dictate the handicap and to prevent sandbagging it would be their breakout time too.

 

You also can exclude high end late model edm/alum chassis unless its being used by new racers to help them out and last but least is if scratch built chassis were allowed/encouraged. I could see  some retro guys dusting off some of their old gear.


  • Jesse Gonzales likes this
Robert Fothergill





Electric Dreams Online Shop