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IRRA Approved Motor List revisions


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#1 IRRA Retro Racing

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Posted 30 March 2021 - 05:41 PM

The IRRA BoD feels a need to address the Approved Motor List in light of problems encountered with the currently-approved motors.

 

After review of the previous criteria utilized for approved motors, the BoD has decided to move to a primarily performance-based criteria, rather than solely a specfications-based criteria, as the latter did not generate the desired equivalent performances. A maximum list price of $15.99 will be instituted on approved motors. The IRRA rule set will be updated to reflect these changes.

 

Samples of FK style motors by various manufacturers were obtained and tested in multiple raceways for a level of performance similar to the JK Retro Hawk. Based on our testing, it is the BoD’s conclusion that the Chicagoland CR102 (also known as the CR Stage 2) is a suitable addition to the currently-approved JK Hawk Retro motor (7R, 8R, and 9R versions). It proved to be no faster than the better Hawk Retro motors during extensive testing. The CR2 motor's specs were recorded to prevent them from being changed in the future.

 

Effective July 1, 2021, the Chicagoland CR2 motor may be used in all IRRA Retro classes. The only exception to this start date is that the Chicagoland CR2 motor will be allowed in the Can-Am Plus class only at the RetroPalooza at PJ Raceway in June, 2021.

 

On the same date, the JK Falcon 7 and TSR motors will be removed from the approved list due to availability concerns. Also, the Professor Motor motor will be removed due its lower level of performance.

 

Raceways may specify either approved motor as hand-out motors at events using IRRA rules.

 

Note that regional or local groups racing under IRRA rules may specify a later date for local legality, up to December 31, 2021.

 

To recap, the IRRA Approved Motor List will be revised to indicate these motors are legal for use in IRRA competition in all classes as of July 1, 2021:

 

Hawk Retro in 7R long shaft, 8R, 9R versions

Chicagoland CR102 (Stage 2)


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IRRA® Board of Directors: Mike McMasters, Joe Neumeister, Tony Przybylowicz, Mike Swiss, Greg Wells





#2 Jesse Gonzales

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Posted 30 March 2021 - 06:57 PM

I realize this ruling is for IRRA but I would like to ask the SoCal racers group to also accept the CR102 (Stage 2) motor for use in their racing programs. Just a suggestion to keep things on an equal footing on both coasts.

 

Great work, guys!

 

Jess Gonzales


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#3 Dominator

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Posted 30 March 2021 - 07:22 PM

Great news!


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A motor is only as fast as the chassis it's in.
 
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#4 Tim Wood

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Posted 30 March 2021 - 10:06 PM

What is a Chicagoland CR102 Stage 2. Never heard of till now. Don't know if that will go over with SCRRA.
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#5 Roy Lievanos

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Posted 30 March 2021 - 11:53 PM

Mike has three motors I believe that he recently put out. They should be pretty good.

 

Mike only promotes good stuff. 


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2017 Western States "Retro Hawk F class" Champion
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#6 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 07:05 AM

I hope the new CR motor is a great success. 

 

I have questions. What is it, when is it, where is it?

 

Any pictures?

 

Is it FK130 style? 


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#7 Tim Wood

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 07:11 AM

Look on Eagle distributors website. Looks like a great motor to try out. Neo mags and double bearings, 40,000 RPM.

Heck, would be nice to try the 55,000 RPM for our LMP Thursday night racing at Piranha.


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#8 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 07:29 AM

I like the sound of the part about brush orientation in the Eagle description. :)  


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#9 snolde

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 07:36 PM

Hi,

Are the armature specs the same?
 
65 turns (nominal) of 30 AWG wire (nominal)
• Stack length - 0.390"
• Arm timing - 15 degrees nominal, commutator tied
• Diameter - 0.513"
 
Thanks.
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#10 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 08:23 PM

Please see post #1 in this thread.

Mike McMasters
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#11 Dave Buchholz

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Posted 02 April 2021 - 10:49 PM

Are the armature specs the same?


The key was similar performance, not necessarily identical specs. 

The other notable point is keeping it the same in the future.
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#12 snolde

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 09:28 AM

Inquiring minds want to know the armature specifications.


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#13 Cheater

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 09:43 AM

Scott, if that is important to you, then buy one and dewind it to count the turns.

The point is that IRRA wishes to have motors on the approved list that are essentially equal in performance, given the variances that always occur due to power differences between tracks.

 

Having two motors on the approved list makes for a better situation if one supplier has a 'problem' batch due to his Chinese vendor.

The IRRA is now in a position to more closely monitor the consistency and equality of motor performance and that should benefit all racers running under IRRA rules.


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#14 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 10:26 AM

I would bet that more than a few have already done just that. And, like Cheater said, you are more than welcome to join that group. When we last approved a new motor we announced we were taking submissions and posted what was, at that time, the wire size/ wind spec. What we ended up with was several new untested motors that were way slower than the existing approved motors. In other words... a failure to address the problem.

This time we sourced motors ourselves that were already in racers hands and being used in various types of racing. Some had been around long enough to have established a good bit of history. Others not so much. But none were new and untested like before. We also decided to disregard the old published specs, as that didn't work out well before, and base from performance.

Several motors came close to what we were looking for, which was performance on par with a good current JKHR. None as close as the CL #2. And with the CL#2 we have the added bonus of them coming from a source that has skin in the game. Mike is a raceway owner, innovator, IRRA board member, and active racer. Who better to test and monitor the consistency of this motor to be sure they continue to meet the IRRA racers needs?

Some have hinted at some collusion going on here. That we were just trying to pad Mikes bank account. Really?? Personally I would think you would appreciate the ability to have someone to contact with any motor issues that is very knowledgeable about Retro racing and not just going to give you lecture about what you did wrong.

And with the huge profit windfall Mike is expecting he is planning on visiting his favorite taco joint twice a week instead of just once. Oh, the life of the rich and famous.


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#15 Dave Buchholz

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 10:27 AM

That should be good news to every racer!
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#16 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 01:32 PM

Is the gearing on these motors expected to be the same as the HR motors?


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#17 Half Fast

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 02:50 PM

No, initial suggested gearing is 10/27 rather than 9/27 on the RH.
 
Cheers,
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#18 Dallas Racer

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 03:42 PM

Not that it really matters, but...

 

Scott, if that is important to you, then buy one and dewind it to count the turns.

 

Why not just say what it is? Surely you know.

 

The point is that IRRA wishes to have motors on the approved list that are essentially equal in performance, given the variances that always occur due to power differences between tracks.

 

I don't get that. Mike's and the JK motors are immune to power differences?

 

Having two motors on the approved list makes for a better situation if one supplier has a 'problem' batch due to his Chinese vendor.

 

That makes sense. Why not keep the slower motors on the list for the same reason?
 

The IRRA is now in a position to more closely monitor the consistency and equality of motor performance and that should benefit all racers running under IRRA rules.

 

I'm feeling kinda dumb. I don't understand that either.


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#19 Dave Buchholz

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 07:32 PM

Mike is... planning on visiting his favorite taco joint twice a week instead of just once.


With the price of beef lately... It means Mike must be filthy rich.



#20 old & gray

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 07:58 PM

Personal opinion:

The position of the board “to move to a primarily performance-based criteria, rather than solely a specifications-based criteria,” is a very positive step. Trying to tie down all the sides of the performance box is difficult, just ask NASCAR.

 

My personal experience was the Group 12 development: 50 turns, minimum stack length, and minimum diameter; magnet height, length, and thickness. That should be easy right? The development curve was steep, as a number of people turned the dials which weren’t specified, trying (and succeeding) in raising the bar of performance. We were racers, it’s what we did.

 

Moving the regulation from the specification to the performance is often done in industry. This to allow the selection of the way manufacturers choose to solve problems in ways which they find are the most comfortable/familiar/economical.

 

The way this motor evaluation project was announced by, a motor vendor who was not selected, and the selection of a motor marketed by a member of the board would be what many industries refer to as “bad optics.” I have no answer to how this could be improved so I will not belabor the point.


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#21 bbr

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 08:26 PM

Performance based.

You could also check the wheel rpm at some specific voltage at tech. Make that the spec and let the dogs loose.


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#22 HarV Wallbanger III

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 08:52 PM

Wheel speed will not work well, Mike, unless gearing is the same on all cars.

 

Hey, how about spec gearing? :shok: Gear them lower than optimum and it will shorten the performance gap many of the "special" motors that some people get because they buy a big batch and get "the pick of the litter" and this does happen. Of course it will slow lap times and slot racers don't like that... Just say'in because I have seen that work.

 

I raced at a track that did spec gearing on Super Wasp motors that racers were allowed to build and I did not like it... Then but I came to see it took away more of my advantage of changing timing, airgap, and gearing. I did not like it the first time I raced there but came to see it brought the good setup cars closer in speed because they topped out half to 3/4 way down the longest straight.  


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#23 HarV Wallbanger III

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 09:30 PM

Oh, yes, and each track would have to develop their own spec gear ratio and post it for any traveling IRRA racers... King tracks could be all the same spec for the most part but other track designs would be different. 

 

Example:

Say optimum gear on your track is 10/28, then drop to a 9/28 and this will help. But very slow motors will still be very slow and not do anything about racers that can't get their cars working the best and nothing will fix that problem except experience.

 

And while you can't build motors in the FK classes an exceptional good motor may allow you to pull a higher gear for more speed down the chutes. Spec gearing really works best in classes that can "build the motor." But for FK motors I still think it could work... maybe...

 

OK, guys... Start your slings and arrows


Barney Poynor
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Hello my name is Barney and I was... I am addicted to glue, magnets, and wings... I have been clean and sober years now... NOW I'm hooked on 1/32 club track racing! Dang!
 

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Enjoy life! Race Slot Cars and read SlotBlog!


#24 old & gray

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Posted 03 April 2021 - 10:50 PM

Barney,

It was tried years back with a mandated 8/28 which would peak two-thirds of the way down the main straight; in addition the problem of overheated motors was solved.

Then some guy from out of town shows up with 1.125" OD tires and a frame set to use them. He passed everyone else through the bank like they were parked. So much for parity.
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#25 bbr

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Posted 04 April 2021 - 03:23 AM

Spec some performance value that can be easily measured.
If someone can engineer a faster way, so be it.
Use whatever motor anyone wants to use.
It's like F1 where they use a fuel flow rate.

If you build a better chassis so be it.
If you are a better racer so be it

Whatever the rule set, if you can figure a better way... that's racing.
Just don't want to have to go thru 100 motors to feel I got a raceable motor.
Mike Low
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