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#1 Jklauk

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 10:00 PM

Looking for a chassis and gear ratio suggestion for a cobalt 12 car?
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#2 Robert BG

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 09:30 AM

I usually start out around 10/44 with C-12 and I-15's But a lot depends on the track,tire size,air gap,single mag/6 mag etc too.

What track are you running and what setup?

 

I just noticed you're looking for a chassis too.......do you already have a C 12 setup? If not have you thought about 27Light?  I find the spring steel chassis in 27 L is a LOT more forgiving and they hold up 1,0000000 times better than the alum C12 cars do.

 

Either way without knowing what track you plan on running its hard to recomend anything.


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#3 Bill Seitz

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 12:23 PM

Gear ratios depend on several factors including the track and track voltage you will be running on. I recently bought 2 Koford C-12 motors, a 6-mag and a 4-mag. The package tag recommended 3.8:1 (10-38 64 pitch which I use) gearing for the 6-mag, and 4.33:1 (9-39) for the 4-mag. I am currently using steel chassis which on a super fast King may not be competitive. The 6-mag ran well on a King with the 10-38 gears. Most of my C-12 experience is with a Camen "Sliver 6" also in a steel chassis on multiple tracks other than Kings. Depending on layout and track voltage, I've run anything from 10-37 to 8-36. Best gearing has been in the range of 4:1 to 4.33:1 with .750 tires. Any of the 27 Lite steel chassis will work, but lighter is better. Expect to be in the low to mid 40s (grams) with steel and in the 30s with aluminum. I recently purchased my first Koford aluminum chassis that has yet to be built and tested. Hope to be doing that soon.

 

I also have a Camen 27 Lite. It's a fine running car, but I find the C-12 is the faster cornering, easier to drive car, despite having used similar chassis and body/aero with both. The C-12 motor is a couple of grams lighter, and that does make a difference.



#4 Jklauk

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Posted 20 April 2021 - 09:24 PM

Gear ratios depend on several factors including the track and track voltage you will be running on. I recently bought 2 Koford C-12 motors, a 6-mag and a 4-mag. The package tag recommended 3.8:1 (10-38 64 pitch which I use) gearing for the 6-mag, and 4.33:1 (9-39) for the 4-mag. I am currently using steel chassis which on a super fast King may not be competitive. The 6-mag ran well on a King with the 10-38 gears. Most of my C-12 experience is with a Camen "Sliver 6" also in a steel chassis on multiple tracks other than Kings. Depending on layout and track voltage, I've run anything from 10-37 to 8-36. Best gearing has been in the range of 4:1 to 4.33:1 with .750 tires. Any of the 27 Lite steel chassis will work, but lighter is better. Expect to be in the low to mid 40s (grams) with steel and in the 30s with aluminum. I recently purchased my first Koford aluminum chassis that has yet to be built and tested. Hope to be doing that soon.
 
I also have a Camen 27 Lite. It's a fine running car, but I find the C-12 is the faster cornering, easier to drive car, despite having used similar chassis and body/aero with both. The C-12 motor is a couple of grams lighter, and that does make a difference.


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#5 Jklauk

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Posted 20 April 2021 - 09:28 PM

Thanks for all that good info. I'll be just using it as a play car on a fast swoopy king. Piranha speedway. Every time I've seen cars on the track the voltage was 14.4VDC. I dont know the magnet set up. It was an ebay find and I'm not sure how to check?
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#6 Jklauk

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Posted 21 April 2021 - 07:41 PM

I usually start out around 10/44 with C-12 and I-15's But a lot depends on the track,tire size,air gap,single mag/6 mag etc too.
What track are you running and what setup?
 
I just noticed you're looking for a chassis too.......do you already have a C 12 setup? If not have you thought about 27Light?  I find the spring steel chassis in 27 L is a LOT more forgiving and they hold up 1,0000000 times better than the alum C12 cars do.
 
Either way without knowing what track you plan on running its hard to recomend anything.


Jason Klauk

#7 Jklauk

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Posted 21 April 2021 - 07:42 PM

I came across a 6 mag C12 motor and would like to build a car around it. Will only be a play car and raced and Piranha speedway.
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#8 Robert BG

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Posted 22 April 2021 - 08:50 AM

Ok,you're going to have a nice rocket play car that is for sure and that King looks like Tracey's old track. If it is then you have a VERY fast track to run.

 

If you have any questions about mag setups Koford has a great tech section detailing magnets among other things here http://www.koford.com/slot/tech.html

Another great reference is the old Slick 7 website and Paul over at Alpha has some tire tuning tips to get you started.

 

Since you're not planning to race yet I would really recommend going with a steel chassis. Most of the current steel designs are for 27L's whereas the current C-12's are alum cars. But Port Jeff is trying C 12 in steel cars to try and reduce costs and chances are I'll be adding C-12 to my lineup if they do. But really there is VERY little difference besides the 27's require a ever so slightly wider motor box.

 

Aluminum cars are lighter and a little faster. But it comes at a price,they're more expensive because of the plating process,more fragile,bend easily and once bent the plating usually comes off.If that doesnt get the plating the acid flux that you forget one time usually gets them. I actually keep my aluminum cars in a box by themselves because even the flux fumes can cause problems..........I honestly cant recommend an aluminum chassis to someone just getting into wing cars for a play car.

 

Now as far as steel chassis's go,there's quite a few options. But I had really good results on that track using a Koford quad rail M709 A(3.850 long). But I'd recommend spending the extra $15-20 for the assembled version from Koford. They do a pretty good job putting them together.

Camen among others also have some really good options,but they are a little harder to get sometimes.

 

If you like to tinker,you might be able to swap motor braces in a Koford group F chassis. I've got no idea how it would handle,but the body and track testing could carry over to the group F class I saw they're starting when I looked up the track. They are half the price of the others so if it a total failure you could build it to the class.

 

Another thing that is possibly more important than the chassis is the body. It can make or break a car and it's damn near a science in itself,but dont let that scare you . There's a great article someone on here saved about doing them if you want to give it a shot. Or you can get one done or and use it as a template. When I got back into things after being away I used trashed race bodies to learn how and now I actually enjoy doing them.......Either way having one done for your chassis/track combo by Bill Taylor (I think that's his name) for your first one is probably the best way to go at first. Then if you want to experiment with different wing and spoilers etc you have a great starting point.

 

As far as tires go I figured I'd mention the Koford "spec series" tires. There's cheaper small hub stuff that is perfectly fine for a play car. But if you want to get 90+% percent of the performance for just over half the price, then give these a shot. I know they're not cheap,but the hubs//rims are quite strong and hold up quite well. So you can either put new doughnuts on them or send them back to Koford. Although there's a minimum for Koford if you go that route.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

I'm sure that I'm missing things and I apologize for being a bit of a scatterbrain...but I was hit by a drunk driver not too long ago and stlill have trouble explaining things as clearly as I used too. So if there's anything you want pics of like aluminum vs steel chassis's,bodies etc etc feel free to ask.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                


Robert Fothergill

#9 Jklauk

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Posted 22 April 2021 - 09:20 AM

Ok,you're going to have a nice rocket play car that is for sure and that King looks like Tracey's old track. If it is then you have a VERY fast track to run.
 
If you have any questions about mag setups Koford has a great tech section detailing magnets among other things here http://www.koford.com/slot/tech.html
Another great reference is the old Slick 7 website and Paul over at Alpha has some tire tuning tips to get you started.
 
Since you're not planning to race yet I would really recommend going with a steel chassis. Most of the current steel designs are for 27L's whereas the current C-12's are alum cars. But Port Jeff is trying C 12 in steel cars to try and reduce costs and chances are I'll be adding C-12 to my lineup if they do. But really there is VERY little difference besides the 27's require a ever so slightly wider motor box.
 
Aluminum cars are lighter and a little faster. But it comes at a price,they're more expensive because of the plating process,more fragile,bend easily and once bent the plating usually comes off.If that doesnt get the plating the acid flux that you forget one time usually gets them. I actually keep my aluminum cars in a box by themselves because even the flux fumes can cause problems..........I honestly cant recommend an aluminum chassis to someone just getting into wing cars for a play car.
 
Now as far as steel chassis's go,there's quite a few options. But I had really good results on that track using a Koford quad rail M709 A(3.850 long). But I'd recommend spending the extra $15-20 for the assembled version from Koford. They do a pretty good job putting them together.
Camen among others also have some really good options,but they are a little harder to get sometimes.
 
If you like to tinker,you might be able to swap motor braces in a Koford group F chassis. I've got no idea how it would handle,but the body and track testing could carry over to the group F class I saw they're starting when I looked up the track. They are half the price of the others so if it a total failure you could build it to the class.
 
Another thing that is possibly more important than the chassis is the body. It can make or break a car and it's damn near a science in itself,but dont let that scare you . There's a great article someone on here saved about doing them if you want to give it a shot. Or you can get one done or and use it as a template. When I got back into things after being away I used trashed race bodies to learn how and now I actually enjoy doing them.......Either way having one done for your chassis/track combo by Bill Taylor (I think that's his name) for your first one is probably the best way to go at first. Then if you want to experiment with different wing and spoilers etc you have a great starting point.
 
As far as tires go I figured I'd mention the Koford "spec series" tires. There's cheaper small hub stuff that is perfectly fine for a play car. But if you want to get 90+% percent of the performance for just over half the price, then give these a shot. I know they're not cheap,but the hubs//rims are quite strong and hold up quite well. So you can either put new doughnuts on them or send them back to Koford. Although there's a minimum for Koford if you go that route.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
I'm sure that I'm missing things and I apologize for being a bit of a scatterbrain...but I was hit by a drunk driver not too long ago and stlill have trouble explaining things as clearly as I used too. So if there's anything you want pics of like aluminum vs steel chassis's,bodies etc etc feel free to ask.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                


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#10 Jklauk

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Posted 22 April 2021 - 09:21 AM

Awsome. Thanks for all the great advice. Im looking forward to building and trying something new for me. Thanks again.
Jason Klauk

#11 Jklauk

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Posted 22 April 2021 - 09:22 AM

Awsome. Thanks for all the great advice. Im looking forward to building and trying something new for me. Thanks again.
Jason Klauk

#12 Bill Seitz

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Posted 23 April 2021 - 08:45 PM

Jason,

 

The latest setup for the fast King tracks is a 3.85" long, narrow chassis and body, 3" wide instead of the usual 3.13". Camen Speedster is one of these if you can find one (and I think it is steel), and Koford has 3.85 narrow chassis in both aluminum and steel. Koford Narrowtek body is the most common narrow body, but there could be others. The narrower car provides for less drag (also less downforce, not a problem on a King), so it will be faster. If you're not concerned about competitive speed, any steel chassis will work, but my preference is still for under 4" long chassis. The Koford spec tires are an economical choice that work well. I believe there is a .615 and .650 diameter hub; I'd go with .650. I have only used this tire on one occasion and went with WH (hard), but I think WX or WXX would be a faster choice. Ask at the raceway, and if they have no suggestion for C-12, try whatever the 27L racers are using. I ran my 6-mag Koford with the suggested 10-38 gears in a 27L steel chassis and was not disappointed in the performance. This would be an 11-42 in 72 pitch gears which some people swear by but I have not tried.

 

I have a chassis jig and scratch building experience, so putting together a wing car chassis kit poses no problem. If you do go the already assembled route, do check to make sure the rear axle is located perpendicular to the length of the chassis. I recently purchased a brand new Koford HBB lightweight chassis that I built up before checking it only to discover that the pillow blocks had not been installed correctly while mounting the body. The axle was out of square about 1/8" because one of the pillow blocks had not been fully inserted into the frame slot. I had to tear the car back down and rebuild the rear end. Makes me a little less critical of some of my building bloopers.

 

I built my first aluminum chassis last weekend. Negative comments and the price tag have kept me away, but I finally decided I had to try one. I decided not to use my usual Superior #78 flux (zinc and ammonium chloride gel) and instead used Superior #30 double strength, an electronics soldering flux. The nickel proved no problem soldering with my usual 96/4 tin-silver solder. I had to use a little more flux then usual and was careful to keep dwell times to a minimum, but the end result seems very satisfactory. I always make sure to clean off the flux residue after soldering, as residue is corrosive with any metal. I'm not going to get a chance to test this chassis for another month, so it remains to be seen how much better it will perform and getting any feel for durability. However, the aluminum is .062 vs .050 in a steel chassis and seems to be equally stout to the steel chassis I'm currently using.

 

I am generally a player, not a racer, but have been around some pretty serious and competitive racing. I can usually control the incidents I get myself into playing better than I ever could racing. I run some pretty lightweight wire chassis and have yet to bend one, although I've bent a few wheels and axles. I think in any situation spring steel is likely the more forgiving and durable chassis material, but I'm hoping that with reasonable care aluminum will give many hours of service.

 

I don't know if you have any previous experience with cobalt strap setups, but I have found the very open nature of the setup permits the motor to pick up more track debris than a can motor. The motors are very susceptible to picking up rubber bits off the track that melt onto the arm and magnets. With the small air gaps, it doesn't take long to get enough buildup in the motor to begin binding the arm which is not very healthy for the arm. Wonder rubber wears at a fraction of the rate of natural rubber, so on a track where only wonder is used this might be less of a problem. I run wing cars on many different tracks including some flat tracks, so I get exposed to lots of natural rubber bits. I keep a careful eye on goo building up on the arm and open the motor and clean it out thoroughly at every brush change. I now use citrus turpine (Goo Gone) as an alternative to volatile solvent (camp fuel). It is very effective at removing the goo either with a good long soaking or scrubbing with bristle brushes, and this will prevent any surprise smoke bombs. Also inspect the motor regularly for any other debris that might be picked up from the track. Stray body pins are another common hazard with these motors.

 

I hope I have not discouraged you from enjoying a C-12. My stable of slot cars has included an assortment of equipment over the years, and without a doubt, C-12s are my favorites.

 

Happy motoring,

Bill



#13 Jklauk

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Posted 23 April 2021 - 09:12 PM

Jason,
 
The latest setup for the fast King tracks is a 3.85" long, narrow chassis and body, 3" wide instead of the usual 3.13". Camen Speedster is one of these if you can find one (and I think it is steel), and Koford has 3.85 narrow chassis in both aluminum and steel. Koford Narrowtek body is the most common narrow body, but there could be others. The narrower car provides for less drag (also less downforce, not a problem on a King), so it will be faster. If you're not concerned about competitive speed, any steel chassis will work, but my preference is still for under 4" long chassis. The Koford spec tires are an economical choice that work well. I believe there is a .615 and .650 diameter hub; I'd go with .650. I have only used this tire on one occasion and went with WH (hard), but I think WX or WXX would be a faster choice. Ask at the raceway, and if they have no suggestion for C-12, try whatever the 27L racers are using. I ran my 6-mag Koford with the suggested 10-38 gears in a 27L steel chassis and was not disappointed in the performance. This would be an 11-42 in 72 pitch gears which some people swear by but I have not tried.
 
I have a chassis jig and scratch building experience, so putting together a wing car chassis kit poses no problem. If you do go the already assembled route, do check to make sure the rear axle is located perpendicular to the length of the chassis. I recently purchased a brand new Koford HBB lightweight chassis that I built up before checking it only to discover that the pillow blocks had not been installed correctly while mounting the body. The axle was out of square about 1/8" because one of the pillow blocks had not been fully inserted into the frame slot. I had to tear the car back down and rebuild the rear end. Makes me a little less critical of some of my building bloopers.
 
I built my first aluminum chassis last weekend. Negative comments and the price tag have kept me away, but I finally decided I had to try one. I decided not to use my usual Superior #78 flux (zinc and ammonium chloride gel) and instead used Superior #30 double strength, an electronics soldering flux. The nickel proved no problem soldering with my usual 96/4 tin-silver solder. I had to use a little more flux then usual and was careful to keep dwell times to a minimum, but the end result seems very satisfactory. I always make sure to clean off the flux residue after soldering, as residue is corrosive with any metal. I'm not going to get a chance to test this chassis for another month, so it remains to be seen how much better it will perform and getting any feel for durability. However, the aluminum is .062 vs .050 in a steel chassis and seems to be equally stout to the steel chassis I'm currently using.
 
I am generally a player, not a racer, but have been around some pretty serious and competitive racing. I can usually control the incidents I get myself into playing better than I ever could racing. I run some pretty lightweight wire chassis and have yet to bend one, although I've bent a few wheels and axles. I think in any situation spring steel is likely the more forgiving and durable chassis material, but I'm hoping that with reasonable care aluminum will give many hours of service.
 
I don't know if you have any previous experience with cobalt strap setups, but I have found the very open nature of the setup permits the motor to pick up more track debris than a can motor. The motors are very susceptible to picking up rubber bits off the track that melt onto the arm and magnets. With the small air gaps, it doesn't take long to get enough buildup in the motor to begin binding the arm which is not very healthy for the arm. Wonder rubber wears at a fraction of the rate of natural rubber, so on a track where only wonder is used this might be less of a problem. I run wing cars on many different tracks including some flat tracks, so I get exposed to lots of natural rubber bits. I keep a careful eye on goo building up on the arm and open the motor and clean it out thoroughly at every brush change. I now use citrus turpine (Goo Gone) as an alternative to volatile solvent (camp fuel). It is very effective at removing the goo either with a good long soaking or scrubbing with bristle brushes, and this will prevent any surprise smoke bombs. Also inspect the motor regularly for any other debris that might be picked up from the track. Stray body pins are another common hazard with these motors.
 
I hope I have not discouraged you from enjoying a C-12. My stable of slot cars has included an assortment of equipment over the years, and without a doubt, C-12s are my favorites.
 
Happy motoring,
Bill


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#14 Jklauk

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Posted 23 April 2021 - 09:23 PM

Wow! A lot of useful information. I raced box stock and international 15 using off the shelf equipment about 30 years ago. Just getting back into the hobby to help get my son off the electronics. I don't have the time or equipment to scratch bld a chassis. Came across a 6 mag C12 motor and thought it would be fun to bld a car around it. We'll be concentrating on LMP for now. Just received a G12 roller from Paul "Beuf" and will be putting some effort into that for now. Thank you for the helpful response.
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#15 Dallas Racer

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Posted 23 April 2021 - 10:40 PM

When did wing car chassis start getting so short?

 

I was unaware of the narrow bodies. When did that start?


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#16 jimht

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 08:53 AM

"When did wing car chassis start getting so short?

 

I was unaware of the narrow bodies. When did that start?"

 

You can probably blame Jim Stevens and Camen for that, 2018 NASRA Nats Group 27 Lite.


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#17 MSwiss

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 11:55 AM

My narrow car experiment from 20 years ago.

Pretty unremarkable performance, but the super-punched, super-fast Kings were still 6 or 7 years away.

20210424_115227.jpg
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#18 tonyp

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 12:35 PM

Fred Strauss and I back when we raced tried a 1/8” narrow car. Was pretty much unexceptional on Buzzys king track.


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#19 Robert BG

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 03:53 PM

Jason, here is a link to the Larry Blanton article on doing bodies  http://www.larryblan...ingKitTech.aspx

 

and this is a great video to fill in the gaps 


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#20 Jklauk

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 06:48 PM

Jason, here is a link to the Larry Blanton article on doing bodies  http://www.larryblan...ingKitTech.aspx
 
and this is a great video to fill in the gaps https://www.youtube....JwLwNc1UM&t=12s


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#21 Jklauk

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 06:54 PM

Wow. All this info has been greatly appreciated. Was able to finally get on the King track today with my G12 with a pro slot USRA spec motor. The speed and performance is mind blowing over the old brass wire chassis and Box Stock 15 motors a was racing back in the late 90s. Can't wait to finally compete again in an organized race.
Jason Klauk





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