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Starting wings from scratch


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#1 Michael Jr.

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 06:48 AM

I have drifted down through the many posts here and in the rules section and can't quite find what I am looking for.  I'm needing a "concept of the operations" brief as well as the details regarding class and rules.

 

I haven't ever had an official wing car class. I've played with creating some Group F rules before but never launched it so I didn't have to live with my ideas and decisions. That's about to change. Piranha has a nice albeit brief set of rules posted. Using that as a place to gain understanding... it looks like I might race both a Div 1 and Div 2 class.

 

Div 1 with Wing chassis

Div 2 with Flexi Chassis

 

Div 1 with the PS4002 motor

Div 2 with... maybe a Mid-America Mockingbird motor

 

72 or 64 pitch?

 

The class will race on a King track

 

I haven't tested these initial thoughts... they are just the place I am going to begin. Guidance, scolding, instruction?


Michael Cannon

Upstate Speedway

100 McMillian St

Spartanburg, SC 29303

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#2 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 08:13 AM

I talked to Mike Shepard the other day and he was talking about your king track and trying to run some wing stuff on it.

 

It would be a bit of a drive but you could see Mike and a few others once in a while.


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Eddie Fleming

#3 mjsh

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 08:19 AM

Keep it simple.

Keep tech simple.

   .Visual

   ..Legal parts

     .Clearance

Consider spec tires 

    . Less inventory

    .  Sales ensured

    . Makes one less area of conflict

Consider use of older chassis initially

     .Will attract group from Georgia to get back into racing

     .Will lower cost to get back in and make more attractive.

 Returning racers are appalled when the power is turned off with every wreck.

      .Excess track calls can almost  double the time it takes to run a race.

      .Makes one less area of conflict.

      . Marshalls never learn with no pressure and all day to put the car back on.

 Hold race on Saturday around lunch to allow racers to drive there  and get back home if possible.

      Despite the governments best efforts, some people still have to work.

 Make race procedures and stick to them.

      Cleaning and spray glue and track maintenance.


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Michael Shepard

#4 mreibman

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 11:03 AM

why not just adopt existing rules like USRA Group F?


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#5 Robert BG

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 11:36 AM

Mike had a lot of great ideas. But keeping it simple at first really seems to be the way to go.

    I also agree with allowing older chassis at first because it is a great way to attract guys back into the mix. Although I would probably make a min weight rule and maybe a caveat of some sort to limit how many wins you can have with something that is no longer available.

 

The idea is to have fun and I too hate a race with endless track calls with guys screaming "track,track" over and over again. The same goes for yelling at marshals,that in itself is a sure fire way to chase racers out the door. Laying down good ground rules and having a race director who actually pays attention to the race can really make or break things here.

 

I like the PS4002 but it loses its appeal to me when you get into the version with the American arm. By then I really think a box stock 12 is the way to go for racing. You can get a fully assembled Koford 12 starting around $75-80 and Cahoza setups start around $90-150 and the Cahoza's are as good as anything out there. I got a deal on 3 of their setups I couldnt pass up when a track ordered them in for a guy who got sick. I figured at the price I'd strip them down and rebuild them,but the 2 are my fastest box 12 setups right off the shelf. So that is something to think about because for a little more money you have a better more flexible setup that has a bit of resale value too compared to a PS4002.

 

I personally would love to see a class like the old Int-15 where you could run chassis built from piano wire,brass and spring steel using box 12's. Something like retro for wing cars ;-) 

 

As far as gearing goes,72 pitch is the way to go and there isnt a big price difference now days. So if you're going to run a spec ratio I'd probably run 72 pitch. But if you're leaving gearing open I'd let guys run either 64 or 72 pitch.

 

Paul at Alpha has the F 2000 (iirc) rules on his site and it's worth a look if starting from scratch. They run a lot of spec tires and I'm a big fan of them too. It really helps keep costs down and things competitive.


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Robert Fothergill

#6 wjtaylor

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 11:40 AM

Under the race announcements heading here, there is a section called rules library. Follow the links shown in the Piranha rules set you saw. They are very close to the same. Just a few changes to make it easier to bring people in.

I have been a supporter of the can motors for low end racing, but the new Proslot spec motor is a really good idea. Allows motor heads to work on the motors. It's fast without being violent.

Jason has one with almost 3000 laps on it and It might still be fast enough to be competitive in the B race

A couple of guys have pulled them out of the package and put them straight into a car. 2.4 and 2.5 here at Piranha

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#7 bbr

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 01:50 PM

As far as racing goes, wing cars are a very mature class as far as what is fast.
I would find out what will work best on your intended track. I have seen guys tried to race all kinds of stuff and realized what they have is not fast enough and give up.
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#8 Mike Patterson

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Posted 08 May 2021 - 09:41 AM

And remember, the track has 4"lane spacing. Passing with wing cars can be problematic at times.  :D


I am not a doctor, but I played one as a child with the girl next door.


#9 Michael Jr.

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 06:47 AM

I'm close to locking these rules down.

 

VERY LITTLE change from the USRA:   Comments?

 

GROUP F WING CAR

Glue: Upstate Speedway races will run using spray glue only. The raceway owner/race director

will determine the formula and application of the spray glue.

 

A. Motors

1. PS4002FK

2. Springs and brushes in the PS 4002FK may be changed. Springs must be of three--‐coil type from a USRA--‐approved manufacturer.

3. Motors must remain sealed

B. Chassis

1. Any Grp 12 chassis. Chassis may not be modified except the pans may be removed.

2. 1/16” minimum chassis clearance (rear)

3. Width 3 1/4” max

 

C. Bodies

Any USRA--‐approved body may be used.

D. Tires

Any spec hub tire with a maximum retail price of $18. No waffled tires allowed

E. Gears & Axle

1. Any 64 pitch gear ratio may be used. Drilled gears are permitted.

2. Only solid axles may be used. May have flats.

3. Axles must be a minimum of 3/32 inch in diameter.

F. Bearings

No ball, roller, or other frictionless bearings are allowed.

G. Weight

No minimum weight for Group F


Michael Cannon

Upstate Speedway

100 McMillian St

Spartanburg, SC 29303

Adapt and Overcome


#10 Michael Jr.

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 09:19 AM

Do I actually need measurements for the wings and spoiler?


Michael Cannon

Upstate Speedway

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#11 Paul Menkens

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 09:32 PM

When you say "spray glue only" do you mean that the racers can't put glue on the tires of their cars or only that they can't apply glue to the track?



#12 Michael Jr.

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 09:27 AM

When you say "spray glue only" do you mean that the racers can't put glue on the tires of their cars or only that they can't apply glue to the track?

 

Glue will be sprayed on the track. Tires won't need the additional glue. Mucks up the track for the people that come behind the tire glue guy. Changes the track conditions from lane to lane. Great for the guy that is gluing, he gets to change the track to suit himself but for everybody else? You can't predict whether your next lane will be as sticky as the lane before.  It just makes a mess.


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Michael Cannon

Upstate Speedway

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#13 Bill from NH

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 10:54 AM

Spray glue is all you need in most slot car classes if you run sponge tires. The exception might be open class wing cars & 27s.  When we had 1/24 eurosports as a local scale racing class, it ran spray glue too.


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#14 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 11:20 AM

Almost everyone now runs spray glue for all classes except old style Grp 7. However, it does depend on how the track surface is setup, the glue formula, and how it is applied. Roman had it figured out at Mimis and he shared it with many of us
Yortuk & Georg Festrunk

#15 Michael Jr.

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 12:06 PM

Almost everyone now runs spray glue for all classes except old style Grp 7. However, it does depend on how the track surface is setup, the glue formula, and how it is applied. Roman had it figured out at Mimis and he shared it with many of us

Feel free to share a winning spray formula!


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Michael Cannon

Upstate Speedway

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#16 Bill from NH

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 12:08 PM

Roman has had a lot figured out right over the years. I recall at the '97 Nats, he told me the best C-can straightening mandrel to get. He was right, I still use that tool today. I still have to try his "Lazy Man's Leadwire.".


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#17 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 09:48 PM

Feel free to share a winning spray formula!


Unfortunately he made it using Camen Brown which is no longer available. So use whatever the next best thing might be, Koford Heavy for example. Empty the glue into a 20oz soda bottle. Fill the remaining bottle with Naptha. Let the bottle to sit overnight to allow the glue to dissolve and mix with the Naptha. When you are ready to spray the track, transfer the mixture from the soda bottle to a heavy duty spray bottle. We used the HD silver spray bottles from Home Depot or Lowe’s. Fill the rest of the bottle with Naptha. BTW, clean the track completely before the glue is applied. We only sprayed the corners and allowed the glue to set for about 15 min before we started running on each lane of the track to spread the glue. We followed this same procedure for all classes up to and including 27 Light. 27 Light cars were faster using this process than when they were running full glue. Motors lasted longer as well…
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#18 LindsayB

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 10:31 PM

Having run a lot of spray glue I always found that when you have new tyres you are very vulnerable for the first say 5 laps getting new tyres glued up to the desired amount as you cant drive at normal speeds. That is why people used to use glue boards to artifically get enough glue on the tyres. 

 In a group F race where races are very tight you will need to before the race estimate how many sets of tyres you need and have them pre-run in - having a glue board alleviates that need. In the long run not allowing glue boards I think makes it more expensive not less.


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Lindsay Byron

#19 MSwiss

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 11:16 PM

Lindsay, I don't think anyone ever changes tires in a Group F race.

Maybe on a Gerding track.

But not on mine, and certainly not the track Michael is getting.

If racers glue boarded their tires by me, they would just pop taking off at the start of the heat. Lol

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#20 LindsayB

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 03:54 AM

Fair call Mike - I assume an all finals race schedule.


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#21 kuni123456

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 10:04 AM

I always break in all of my tires before any race. I like to run at least ten or fifteen laps on each tire. I use some glue before breaking in G7 or 27L tires. I like the idea of running Class F wing cars to get more racers involved and see what happens at Piranha Speedway. I like using USRA Class F rules.


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#22 bbr

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 10:41 AM

Jason let me run his test mule usra fk car n the motor really sings with alot of rpms. Fun to drive.
Mike Low
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Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?





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