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F1 anglewinder chassis ID


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#1 ajd350

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 09:39 AM

I acquired this chassis recently, as is. I cleaned it up and am trying to figure out it's origin. It looks too good to be a production piece and I am guessing it was not run much. Any speculation or observations on this? It has what looks like a fiberglass front axle. It has 3 body mount tubes, one being ahead of the front axle.

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Al DeYoung




#2 Isaac S.

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 09:50 AM

Definitely a newer build by someone not too talented. Take the wheels off and show us a picture of the axle. If it is an Arcolite axle then it is worth more than the chassis. And make sure the fronts are on the axle flats. 


Isaac Santonastaso

#3 Steve Deiters

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 11:04 AM

Looks like REHco fronts on the chassis.



#4 ajd350

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 01:04 PM

There are no flats, and the wheels have 2 opposing set screws.

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#5 ajd350

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 01:14 PM

There are 2 hinges, the drop arm and a second at the front.

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#6 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 01:29 PM

Those axles never had flats as far as I know.

 

With the plumber hinge on the drop-arm and the drop-arm hinge thing just kind of go every which way and if you throw in pan hinges it is even worse, but it all worked when you set it on the track.


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#7 elvis44102

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 01:56 PM

Looks like REHco fronts on the chassis.

im old, but i remember rehco(RVM?) as having less rubber....also looks like strength was sacrificed for a body mount tube on the pillow block/guide flag assembly...the single wire rear end also not to strong looking IMO..my plastic axles would get covered in brass from eating up the axle tube


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#8 Bill from NH

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 02:42 PM

Eddie, you're right, neither the 3/32" or 1/8" Arcolite axles came with flats. They weren't needed, you didn't need a knurled set screw to bite into them, any set screw would easily. I tried running them back in the 70s, but didn't like how they ate the front axle tubes. Someplace, I may have still have new Arcolites around.

 

With this chassis all cleaned up, you can't tell if it's an old build or something newer.  It's definitely an old design, but is it built for 1/8" axles or 3/32"?. If it was 1/8", I'd say it was old. .Those fronts do have more rubber than the genuine RVMs. I have no REHCO clones to compare them with. The rough soldering could be attributed to not enough heat, not enough flux, not the right flux, inexperience, or a combination of some or all of these. The basic wire bending done on this chassis looks real good with nothing misplaced. Al you got a fine F1 anglewinder chassis here that does have a few assembly flaws. By any chance did you take any photos of this chassis before you cleaned it up? If so, could you post a couple. 

 

I don't know Al personally, but I know he's an experienced collector. I question if he would buy junk.


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#9 Isaac S.

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 02:43 PM

Yep, that is an Arcolite axle, and Eddie is right they never had flats. 


Isaac Santonastaso

#10 ajd350

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 03:52 PM

Thanks, Bill. I have been known to buy the odd turd from time to time, but who doesn't? Let's just say I'm not in deep on this one...LOL. It is set up for 1/8" axles F/R. I figured that no one would be likely build a car for a class that hasn't existed for decades. I thought it odd to have the pillow block setup for the guide like that. You can see the motor brace on the rear tube. I saved it when it fell off. The can clearly had been soldered to the rail. The soldering isn't up to the standards of beauty we now take for granted, but it's solid. Whatever it is, it will be built up as whatever the information leads to. So how early were Arcolite axles in use?

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#11 Isaac S.

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 05:31 PM

Looking at the old pictures it could be an old build. I was thinking you bought it like that. it could be made into a nice car with some solder wick, sanding and re-soldering. I would guess mid-'70 but it has some earlier aspects such as the pillow-block and the full-size 16D. 

 

If I was restoring this car I would repair the chassis and then use a Mura B-can, a D/A-can would be too early.  I would then finish the car with rear axle and body. 


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#12 Bill from NH

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 07:39 PM

Al, from your "before" photo, all this rough soldering was from someone's attempt to rebuild/restore/resolder this chassis rather than the solder of the original build. The original would have had some patina rather than still be bright & shiny.  As Isaac said, your motor box is built for a 16D can rather than the slightly smaller C-can. That motor box  also is for an endbell drive motor & it has a steep angle axle to motor box. The first brass/wire wing car chassis I built in 1970 had 1/8" axles, a steep angle motor box for 16D can mounting on the left side, 3/4" fronts & 7/8" rears. That first chassis is the only one like it I ever built. I think your F1 chassis was built in the late 60s to early 70s. Incidentally, my second & subsequent chassis builds  were 3/32" axles, C-can motors soldered in (no motor mounting plate), 5/8" fronts, & 13/16" rears. I don't know the year when Champion released the Arcolite axles .It was '72 or '73 when I first tried their 3/32" ones. A   B-can motor in your chassis might require more work than just being screwed in. If your motor mounting plate is sized for a 16D, as it probably is, it'll leave a B-can hanging in the air. You would then have to either shorten it at the base or replace it with a plate made for a C-can. B&C cans are about the same height, but the B is wider & longer.


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#13 Isaac S.

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 08:16 PM

Bill is correct, all the "shiny" solder joints are newer repairs. And if the plate is made for a 16D it won't work well with the low-profile B-can.  I have never tried but I do think it will work for the later Champion motors, Orange Picker, Grp. 20, 525, etc. 


Isaac Santonastaso

#14 ajd350

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 10:22 PM

Spot on about the motor plate. It will only fit a small bearing 16D. I dropped in an early Mura and it fits like it belongs there. 


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#15 Bill from NH

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 07:43 AM

Al, just a wild thought about this chassis. Dynamic sold pre-bent anglewinder sportscar chassis kits that could be built for either right side gears or left side gears with a kit. There were at least two different kits, maybe more. I'm not very familiar with these kits, but I'm thinking your chassis could have been built with one. Your drop arm has a Dynamic guide block & its plate with the cut corners looks like a production piece too. If it was built from a kit, that would account for all the parts seeming being bent properly & in the correct locations. Someone converting the chassis from a sportscar chassis to an F1 by removing the pans could explain the bright, but rough solder joints. The very front body pin tube can only be used if the front wheels are removed first. Just a few thoughts that might apply, or they might not.


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#16 ajd350

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 06:40 PM

That Dynamic block caught my eye early on. I have not yet found a pic of the frame you describe. It would be interesting to compare. This is the direction I'm headed with it with the  D/A can Mura. I was going to swap the Riggen guide for a Jet Flag but the Jet would have been trimmed at the rear to get enough rotation. The Riggen is perfect.  Would those front wheels fit in the 1969-70 time frame? Thanks for the insight.

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#17 Isaac S.

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 06:56 PM

Those wheels are good. Looks great so far. 


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#18 old & gray

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 08:37 PM

I’ve been watching this and Pablo’s GP Angle winder threads. Back in 1968-69 the raceway ran a weekly race for these cars. The rules were the “narrow” (1 ¾ wide) chassis with motors limited to stock 16d or 26d which prevented the dread wheel hop. The track was a 220 foot Engleman so it was interesting with the flat turns and no glue.

 

Your car would look right at home in one of those starting fields Al, very nice work.


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#19 Bill from NH

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 10:16 PM

Al, I'll keep my eyes open for photos of  the Dynamic kits to post.. There are probably completed built photos on here some place. I'm sure dc-65x (Rick  Thigpen in OR) has built at laest one.


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Bill Fernald
 
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#20 Bill from NH

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 10:31 PM

Here is an example of a Dynamic chassis kit. I don't know if yours came the particular kit. It's too late to look for others tonight.

It doesn't appear that  Dynamic's other chassis kits are posted on Slotblog. I'll keep some old photos in mind if I come across any of them. I recall a race report with a photo of a built Dynamic chassis kit on the podium. I just can't find it now.

 

NH Dynamix Kit (A).jpg

 

NH Dynamix Kit (B).jpg


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Bill Fernald
 
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#21 dc-65x

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 03:03 PM

Hey, nice pictures.


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#22 Bill from NH

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 08:22 PM

Your photos aren't they Rick? I found them in a "search".


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#23 ajd350

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 10:14 PM

I tried to fill in the missing bits with period parts with the exception of a modern repro body. One of these days it may run some laps.

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#24 Bill from NH

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 10:21 PM

Nice job on the body Al. Did you paint it yourself? I think that body is a BRM.


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#25 ajd350

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 10:38 PM

Yes, thanks.


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