31 replies to this topic

[Martin]

So with some perseverance I am closing in on the date the rule for outside of rear wheels, changed, from max. 3 1/8" which started in 1971. Please add any local rules that may predate this.

Seen here.Thanks to Ricks copy of the 1971 USRA rules. Did this over-rule NCC or ?????

Steve Okeefe's Time line is great stuff, 1962 to 1973. For sure the golden years for many. But for a new generation the 70s and 80s were just a new beginning. Wings, steel, and more speed.

 

But the info I was looking for is when the maximum rear wheel width changed to 3 1/4". A simple question I thought.

But so many of us got out of slots early 70s I was running out of  knowledgeable slot car folk to ask.

Nicky 65 had the chance to go into the basement at Buzz-a-rama. He found rule books there for 79 80 and 1982.

Thanks Nicky so much for saving much of this history.

In 1979 it was  3 1/8'' when the Nats were held at Buzz-a-rama.

In 1980 it was still 3 1/8" max at the rear wheels. The Nats were held at Grand Prix raceway in Cincinnati.

In 1982 the rule reads slightly different and states no part of the car can be wider than 3 1/4". Held at Inman raceway S.C.

 

I am looking for a rule book from 1981 as the change could have happened in 81 or 82? But this will help us date original cars.

 

I am now more sure this #76 car is from 1976 and is 3 1/8" at the rear wheels, which are 13/16" O.D. and fronts are 5/8" O.D.

 

Please add any info to this conversation to shed a little more light on this almost forgotten time (The dark ages) in slot racing. Please share your pics of your cars from this time period.

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[MSwiss]

I got reinvolved in slot racing in late '81, when Jerry Kulich came into where I worked, to have me order Parma parts, for his just opened raceway, Fun Island.

I ordered for myself a Womp and an Int.15 car.

I, by accident, on a Saturday, wandered into a Midwest USRA race, at another local. raceway, Mark Mattei's Cycle Smithy, where Mark had an American Red in the lower level.

I didn't run in that race, but got involved in competitive racing, shortly after that.

This was probably in December, a few months after the Nat's had been held in nearby Milwaukee.

Bottom line, I never raced at a narrower width, or was there any dimensional rule changes in those early days(for me), from late 81, on.

[Martin]

I am looking for a rule book from 1981 as the change could have happened in 81 or 82?

 

Thanks Mike, you came in just as the 3 1/4" rule was made. Do you have pics of what the fast guys were racing at that time? Did you keep your old race cars?

Any old school racers from the 70s still racing in this 80s generation?

[MSwiss]

My point was it didn't happen in 82'.

There was never "Hey, you can run your rear width, wider now.

It's been the same since I got back in.

I built my first new era chassis in early '82, and probably still have it back at the raceway, but it doesn't have the rear end in it.

I already have someone on it, from our Wednesday night racing, Mark Rosenwinkel.(muskieman19)

We raced late tonight, but he always stops at the same late night restaurant on his way home.

I texted him and he said he would check in the morning.

[muskie^man19]

I was at both the 1981 Nats in Milwaukee at Hank's and raced at the 1982 Nats in Inman.  Hardcopy original rule books are in my archives.

 

Stay tuned.

 

Mark

[muskie^man19]

Here are photos of Paul Pfieffer's winning cars from 1981 (Milwaukee, WI) and 1982 (Inman, SC)

[muskie^man19]

 

[jimht]

No mention of 3 1/8" but this is not the USRA Rulebook.

I'll keep digging.   

 

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[Martin]

Rule #2 says it all. "Width - Car can be no wider than 3 1/4" at any point" so I read that as the whole car including wheels. It is worded similarly that way in the 82  USRA rule book too. Ricky 65 read it to me, so the wording may not be exact.

 

The way is worded prior to 1981 is "overall body width 3 1/4" width at wheels 3 1/8".

 

So to be clear up to 1970 was 3'' at rear wheels. Body 3 1/4" max.

 

1971 to 1980 was 3 1/8" at rear wheels. Body 3 1/4"max.

 

1981 to today is overall width of complete car 3 1/4" max (including wheels)       Is that the way we all see it?

[jimht]

Well, I could make a case for 3 1/4" from the 1979 USRA Rules if I wanted to be irritating...look at the wording of 2. and then 6B. LOL.

Not to mention whoever did the rulebook had a sense of humor...look at the drawing of the car.

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[Bill Seitz]

I just know that all the tech tools I've seen are only 3-1/4" wide. The rules as Jim has shown had an ambiguity with wheel width at 3-1/8 (3-1/4 max) and the rule stating any part of the car couldn't exceed 3-1/4 max. What's not discussed here is that tires also got wider which necessitated the wider overall width. I remember rear tires in the 60's only being 5/8 wide, then I think they went to 3/4 wide, and now we have .810 wide.

[MSwiss]

Jim,
I like that width rule.

Translated;"3 1/8" maximum, but we know you're a slot racer, so we're not going to get mad unless it's over 3 1/4". Lol

Reminds me a bit of the original G27 rule, which I think you pointed out was 40T27, plus or minus 2, which became 38T because what motor maker wouldn't want to wind at the minimum that would be deemed legal if protested.

Bill,
Your post doesn't make sense to me.

They made the tires wider, so they had to change the rules to accommodate them?

That would be like if Stu started selling 45T Int 15 arms, and the USRA changed the rule to make them legal, just because they existed.

Edit-PS-I'm not saying wide tires didn't exist, but it seems highly unlikely whoever the tire maker of choice was back then, quit making the existing narrower size required to be legal.

[Martin]

Thanks for this Jim.

The 1979  (6-b) rule says 3 1/8" max at the wheels. The car itself has stayed constant at 3 1/4" max. But read that rule because it says something at the end of that rule that seems to contradict itself.

Is that clear to anybody?

No wonder they decided "screw it, just make it 3 1/4" max"

 

In 81 USRA dropped the wording for the wheels and just said 3 1/4" max for the whole car. 

Please check me on that as I do not have a 81 USRA rule book.

 

That's a good point Mike (about the gears) that rules seem to be somewhat in flux, given a good case.

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[MSwiss]

Martin,
Jim and I already alluded to, that the rule doesn't make sense.

And I added that the 40T G27 rule was not that well thought out.

If you are looking for 100% perfection in the USRA rules, over the years, you've come to the wrong place. Lol

Personally, I think you're getting too hung up on this width thing as a way to identify what year the chassis came out, or even think you can pin a chassis down to a year.

An example is the below chassis I built in 1982.

If someone with knowledge from that era saw it, they would just as easily guess 1980.

And if it had a rear end in it, and was 3 1/4", that still wouldn't exclude it from being made in 1980.

IOW, it might of competed at both widths.

[Bill from NH]

In CT, where I did much of my wing car racing in the 70s, it was common practice to extend the donuts beyond the outer edge of the hubs. This made the 3 1/8" width measured at the hub have a donut footprint nearly 3 1/4" wide.

[Martin]

Thanks to all that are contributing here. What I am hopping is that we can create a time line that would give us an incite to a date a car could have been built.

It can never be 100 percent I realize, but some key design clues and specs are helpful.

For instance front wheel diameters went from 3/4" to 11/16 to 5/8" to 1/2" I believe. Anybody care to add some dates to those changes.

 

 I can see it was still 5/8'' fronts and 3/4" rears in 1979.  In the Lee Gilbert interview that Rick posted where it says there was a rule change to 11/16.

Then in 80 it was 1/2''fronts  and 13/16" rear.

 

Below is that statement from Lee 1971 and pictures of cars from the same date, would be great if anybody has more from that mid decade period.

No guide nut yet and still having full front axles.What year did those changes happen?

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[Martin]

Jim, sorry I missed your (make a case) comment in post #10.

 

Your comment about sense of humor in the drawing? is that because the motor is drawn in backwards or am I missing more?

[Bill from NH]

I don't know which year the Gilbert car shown at the top of post #16 was built, but its 45T Fass spur would never have provided 1/16" clearance when using 3/4" or 13/16" diameter tires. I recall Faas spurs 44T-48T became obsolete when we changed from 7/8" rears to 13/16". I still have a few new gears 52 years later.

[Martin]

Bill.

That was in May 1971 issue of Miniature Auto Racing newsletter.

Rick posted the article.

In the #1 post there is a copy of the 71 rules. Even the 79 rules say 5/8" min fronts and 3/4" rear min. Same as in 71.Yep I had to read that twice too.

I have actually never seen a Pro car built with 3/4" rears, have you?

But there it is in black and white. You would think it would have been tried, and maybe it was and the traction was just not there? Now we have .790"s correct?

 

Bill, in reference to your gear track clearance comment. That rule does state it is at the "shop owner's decision"

[jimht]

Martin, yes, bass-ackwards chassis and motor.

 

Also, all wing car chassis that I built after 1970 were set up for 3/4" rears.

 

The TSRA  and East Coast adopted the 1971 California USRA rules, making them the first set of National rules for Opens after the demise of the NCC.

[Martin]

Thanks Jim, I did not know that. We are talking 3/4" diameter, correct.  Like I said I have never found a pro car from this period that has that D.

 

My early (70s and before ) cars are 7/8" D. and later cars are 13/16" D.

[Bill from NH]

Bill, in reference to your gear track clearance comment. That rule does state it is at the "shop owner's decision"

 

That 45T spur would have dragged on the track with 3/4" tires. I'll mike one tomorrow. When Jim H. built for 3/4" tires, what gears did he build for?

[jimht]

http://slotblog.net/topic/34299-info-for-two-old-races/#entry380243

[Bill from NH]

Martin, I measured a 42T Fass spur, It has a .688 diameter. That gear with 3/4"(.075) tires would provide .031 clearance. My 45T spurs are packed away better, but have a larger diameter than the 42T. The 42T spur used with 13/16" tires provides .06225 clearance.

[Martin]

Bill, if you have looked at the race specs that Jim posted 8/42 gearing seems to be the average. The other thing to think about is gear clearance was up to the discretion of the track owner.  Stated in the rules.

Of course the smaller the tires the smaller the gear can be to have the overall ratio.

Most of the cars I am restoring (mid 70s) did come with 8/42 but have 13/16 D tires.

Not that was well policed but that combo gives the perfect 1/16".