36 replies to this topic

[dc-65x]

Back in the Twentieth Century I saw this really cool-looking chassis in a 1973 issue of Miniature Auto Racing (MAR) newsletter:



This is the two-bearing prototype of the very innovative car that our host Philippe de Lespinay won the Western States Championship with in 1973. It has independent front suspension and a fixed "drop arm". Here is my recreation of that two-bearing prototype:













The car handled terrific but I built the motor before I had any proper Blue Dot magnets. The vintage "mystery" armature I used had LOTS of timing and the thing just ran way too hot. I only ran it a couple of times and put it on the shelf at the SHPBAPSCR Museum.

In case anyone is interested, I'm now going to put the two-bearing chassis as pictured above with front wheels and ball bearings up for sale on eBay because...

I'm finally finishing my three-bearing version I started a couple of years ago. Here are some scans from MAR of Pdl’s Western States Championship winning racer:



Here is an "X-ray" drawing he did of his winner:



Here is a link to the construction article I did on my three-bearing recreation. There are a zillion pictures so it takes a while to load:

Building a Neat Things Diamond

I built the front end for my three-bearing version for our Aguirre clone O-ring front wheels:



Then a supply of "korrect" Neat Things fronts surfaced. They are what really belong on the chassis but they are about 1/16" wider than the Aguirre's. That meant tearing the Diamond front axles apart . So I did what any avid scratchbuilder would do. I threw the thing in a box and moved on to the next project .

I've finally gotten back on track to finish this project. I removed the Aguirre front wheels and unwound about 1/16" of copper wire bulletproofing off the front axle. I cut off an equal amount of the rear Diamond axle brace to allow the wider Neat Things front wheel to fit. It really wasn't that big of a deal and I should have done it years ago. Here the Neat Things front wheel is installed with the Aguirre next to it:



Note the Kool little bead detail on the Neat Things wheel:



The korrect front end:



A look at the unique three-bearing rear end:



Now it is all ready for a motor:



Onward...

[68Caddy]

You are killing me... what a beautiful build car. I would love to get one.
That's the stuff I love.

Nesta aka 68Caddy

[TSR]

I do not think that the original was even CLOSE to be as nifty as the one Rick built... outstanding work.

[Edo]

Well Rick,

You do know what I think of "modified inlines"*, don't you?

But let my say this again: what an amazing craftmanship!!!
And I loooove that kool little bead detail on the Neat Things wheel!

Regards,

E.

* Awfully sorry, the A word is non-existent in my vocabulary!

[havlicek]

Rick,

This is one of those chassis that just looks fast without even trying the thing out. Your build is flawless and the thing just drips "craftsmanship". Of course... MAJOR kudos are also in order for Phillipe for having designed and built the original whose performance is documented. Two bearings... three bearings... no bearings... who cares? They're beee-ooo-tee-ful!

On the original arm:

The vintage "mystery" armature I used had LOTS of timing and the thing just ran way to hot. I only ran it a couple of times and put it on the shelf at the SHPBAPSCR Museum.

What wind was the arm and were you able to check the timing with a gauge to see what it was? Also, did you check out each pole with a multimeter to see if there were any problems?

[TSR]

This is one of those chassis that just looks fast without even trying the thing out.

It was. It opened a whole new way of thinking then, that lasted many years...

[havlicek]

Excellent, Philippe! And congratulations again!!!

I get a huge charge out of seeing these cars via the builds here on Slotblog. In the article above it talks about some impressive-as-heck performance using a "single 25". Do you remember any more specifics about the arm itself? I'd love to try and recreate the wind as I've come across some older Mura blanks that I've cobbled together to make arms with.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

John, are the blanks .007 lamination blanks?

Fate

[dc-65x]

Thanks, guys. Dokk's design does indeed look FAST just sitting there.

Edo, I respect your decision to avoid the "A" word in vintage slot cars but you're missing out on lots of fun and kool cars. You know the earliest "A" cars used some of the same beautiful bodies you showed in your neato inline pro car post:



The motor is farther back so you can position the driver "korrectly", unlike a lot of inlines:



They use the same hot rewound motors you love and lots of brass rod in the chassis:



Maybe you could try one out .

Hey, John, I've a tale to tell on building a motor for the three-bearing car. Maybe some of you more experienced motor builders can chime in on what I did right, wrong, or could have done differently. I've got the pictures done I just need to write about my... ummmm... ordeal

[havlicek]

John, are the blanks .007 lamination blanks?

Hi Rocky...yes, they are. I was able to acquire a bunch of arms but all of them had very short stacks... 375" all the way down to .350". After trying and then working out a scary method, I was able to get three arms with stack lengths of at least .460" out of every four arms by transferring plates. I had tried this earlier on a new Mura blank for a very different reason and the result wa less-than successful. It DID work however on these older Mura blanks to my surprise. Anyhow, I don't want to sidetrack Rick's thread here but was looking at doing a couple of "classic" winds using these blanks.

Rick,

I'm all ears!... And I don't want to unknowingly stir any pots here... but I don't understand the aversion (unless this is just a joke and I missed the setup!?) to anglewinders. These are some of the most beautiful builds, representing the evolved engineering that came about from real folks like Philippe being "out there" and seeing what works.

[TSR]

In the article above it talks about some impressive-as-heck performance using a "single 25". Do you remember any more specifics about the arm itself?

The Steube arms used Mura .005" blanks as well as some Thorp .005"s.

Mike Steube often used an S25 arm in big races because as the power (nearly always) fell off, the big wire arms (S23, S24) began slowing down and Mike won lots of races by sticking to the smaller wire.

I was always doing the reverse, using the biggest wire Bill Steube would let me use. I won several biggies using S23s that were total rockets with little brakes, and worked that out in the chassis and aero departments. Worked for me.

[havlicek]

Thanks for that, Philippe. From what little I can gather from the few pictures I've seen of these arms, they seem like they were crazy-hot (timing and winds). I was hoping for some specific wind info so I could see how they sound and look on the meter.

Thanks again.

[dc-65x]

Hi John,

I wanted to show you the armature in question. It turns out to be a Pooch arm by our friend Joel Montague. I can't believe I didn't notice it before but..........live and learn. I'll recognize the way "24" is engraved for the rest of my life:



Look at those windings they look like............well like yours! You do great work! And look at that comm. I almost fried it



Machine wound vs hand wound arms:



Anyway, this is the type of arm I'm putting in my Diamond. It's a Parma single 24. It's a period machine wound Mura I'm told. It had no corrosion, mild timing and I hope I can get some track time out of it before it melts down.
I've got plans for that bad *** Pooch. Check out the timing between the two:



Here's the difference in the stack length:



Lastly John, I saved this armature from an Ebay auction win just for you:





HOLY SMOKES! What do you make of that!

[Bill from NH]

A couple more Pooch indications. Purple arm dye in the balance holes & in the engravings. Purple paint on the end of the stack from Camen balancing. In the day, both were Joel's trademarks.

[havlicek]

Rick,

THANKS for those closeups, MUCH appreciated...now we're getting somewhere! The Pooch 24 is a thing of beauty alright and the timing looks extremely aggressive. If I had to guess by the photos, I'd say the timing could be as high as 30-40 degrees (I've never gone past 25 and more typically go from 12-15). The quality of the wind speaks for itself, doing that kind of work with such heavy wire is no easy task, kudos to Mr. Montague! It also looks like a really light wind...somewhere in the teens alright...maybe as low as 15-16 turns since first layer is probably 5-6 turns, second layer 5 turns and the last looks like 3 turns. Heck...from the head-on view...it could be less!!! That's probably a .1 ohm arm and it must scream at 12 V with the right magnets! I know you do the comms up right with your lathe before building the motor and that you do careful break-ins and setups as well, so I don't know why the com looks so toasty. It could be the arm "likes" different weight springs, could be the magnets just aren't up to what this arm can do, could simply be that this wind/timing is too freakin' much! It sure is a beautiful arm though

The Parma will probably run fine (as long as it tests out) even though it's not very pretty. The timing does look more conservative than the Pooch, but if I had to guess I'd say it's still probably around 20 degrees or more. The wind looks a lot fuller though...maybe close to 20 turns as again I'm going by what I see as well as just knowing how much #24 wire you can fit on a layer. That's still a "hot" arm by any measure and is closer to my #24s and #25s except it looks like a longer stack (which equals more wire) than I normally use...again though, it's all guesswork from the pictures and when the wire is as heavy as #24...one turn can make a significant difference.

As for the eBay arm...I don't know what to say It looks like the person was trying-out some arm winding for the first time, but was really distracted by something Well...at least the guy was trying and getting his hands dirty! Thanks again for those photos! I'm going to use one of my "vintage" blanks with Kirkwood com to do up a #24 closer to the Parma and see how it tests out...say around 15 degrees advance, and 18-19 turns. I don't really have any use for it, but I want to see if it comes in at .2 ohm and how much current the thing draws. The way these things go...they usually draw the most current at startup/low voltage and then things stay pretty stable as the speed/voltage increases. It's amazing that arms as hot as these could last for a race (unless this all was after people started changing-out motors during the race)!

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

John, the rules didn't allow any parts replacements in most places. There may have been exceptions, but I didn't hear about them. In the day, with those big fields, there wasn't much time between heats, move the car/change the sticker/give the tires a wipe.

First time I was at a group 7 race and saw motor changes, I actually protested, they were allowing a full 5 minutes between heats.

You might ask around about the plate issue. You are correct it is a pain in the tush to pull plates and not bend them. In the day, the manufacturers all had packets of plates and packets of other bits for sale very cheap. When I was following Ebay, I did see some of this stuff show up and go cheap.

But as I said, in the day, there were a couple guys at every track who never bought motors, just bits and built stuff.

Fate

[dc-65x]

Thank you to all those that inquired about my available 2-bearing chassis. It has been sold to an avid collector and it will be assembled back into a complete car by one of the best vintage builders around. I hope it will show up here on the blog in the future.

Anyway, time for the motor saga. I decided to use a new Parma (Mura) single 24 arm, Champion Blue Dot zapped and matched magnets, my cloned Champion .004" magnet shims and a vintage Mura C-can.



Even though this is a NOS arm the comm was out of round so I trued it up:



I tinned the areas on the can where it will be soldered to the chassis and heavily chamfered the cooling holes in the can to.........look cool .



I assembled the motor and centered the arm in the magnetic field and measured where the magnets ended up in the can. Then I epoxied the shims and magnets into the can with Koford magnet epoxy. I honed the magnets to a .525" air gap with a .512" arm diameter:



Here is the black wrinkle painted can with the masked off tinned areas and a standard grade modern slot car ball bearing installed (shields removed):



Next up were the end bell and goodies. I used an early first generation "big bearing" end bell. It's a milled B-can end bell and requires brass shims top and bottom to center it in the can. I also drilled a comm inspection hole the end bell because I think they're cool too :



Here are the modified brush hoods, brushes and our cloned "comm coolers":



The Mura spring post cups were reversed and pilaster head machine screws installed along with Tradeship fiber washers to insulate the spring posts from the current:



My cloned Parma Droughty heat sinks were modified to the later Parma style by trimming 1/16" off. Notice they are no longer symmetrical:



I carefully assembled all these wonderful parts into a beauteous and neato little motor. Everything should have been most wondrous.............









...................unfortunately when I hooked up the Koford power supply to break it in the thing was drawing over 4 amps at 1.5V and making this rhythmic buzz........buzz.......buzz noise . When I felt the motor I could feel the rhythmic vibrations . Then I started to smell something.........like paint. I touched the motor again and it was hot as a firecracker .

I shut it off and went from modern Champion medium brush springs to Champion lights. The amp draw was almost as high it was still getting HOT and of course there was still the vibration............crud. Then I noticed there was some play in the gear end of the armature. Not between the shaft and the ball bearing but in the ball bearing itself. Not good.

I remember Eddie (Eddie's Slot Car World, Vallejo, CA) told me that even new arms can be out of balance. Time to tear my new motor apart . I notice that the front of the armature stack had been lightly hitting the magnets even with a .0065" air gap per side .

I checked the arm for static balance but it never rolled to a stop in the same place twice. I replace the standard grade ball bearing with the best Slick 7 piece and honed the magnets to .530" air gap.

Back on the power supply with light Champion brush springs and it was drawing about 2 amps at 1.5V. The buzzing and vibration was gone as was the overheating. I went up to modern Camen regular tension brush springs and the amp draw stayed in the low 2's.

I don't know what was up with that ball bearing. I've used the standard grade versions by Slick 7, ProTrack and others without any problems before. I hate to have to pop $17 each for a bearing from now on

Anyway, that's my motor saga. Time to install the motor and finish the assembly............

Onward

[Jairus]

I believe a bowl of those motors would be more attractive to me than a bowl of chocolate cordels held by a tender young Miss Cristina herself!
(And I am straight too.... (is that weird?))

[havlicek]

A beautiful job on the motor as well Rick! Then again...anything less would have looked weird in that chassis :-)

-john

[68Caddy]

One day I will get one of this creations from you?


Nesta aka 68Caddy

[bres3000]

I don't suppose you'd happen to know where a feller could get some wheels like these???

I built the front end for my three-bearing version for our Aguirre clone O-ring front wheels:



Then a supply of "korrect" Neat Things fronts surfaced. They are what really belong on the chassis but they are about 1/16" wider than the Aguirre's. That meant tearing the Diamond front axles apart . So I did what any avid scratchbuilder would do. I threw the thing in a box and moved on to the next project .

[dc-65x]

I don't suppose you'd happen to know where a feller could get some wheels like these???

Hi Bill,

What we had to do was find a manufacturer who was willing to work with us on small quantity production runs. That was small to the manufacturer but big bucks for a couple of slot car enthusiasts to front. Then we had to make a detail drawing of the wheels based on an original and convert it to .pdf format. I passed along half of my share of these wheels to a friend at our cost and what's in the picture is all I have left for my personal use. If you want to pm me I can check to see if the others guys have any they would like to part with.

Rick

[Jeff R]

Truely an awsome job on the chassis!!!!!!!!! I use to own an original back in the late 70's handled great, smooth as silk. Yours is a work of art sure it will be even more enjoyable.

[dc-65x]

Thanks Jeff,

I should find out how she runs next weekend at Eddie's .













Time to mount the body and install the 6" high side dams

[Tex]

Dang! Look at those tires; they look so.... true.