34 replies to this topic

[studentdriver]

I've asked this to a bunch of good folks with experience and I just want to maybe see if I'm missing anything still (because I have a thick skull).. From reading through these forums I see a lot of people running wonder rubber. The harder compound for faster speeds. I know the following:

 

1) driving style matters

2) temperature/humidity of track counts

3) amount of rubber on track, etc.. 

4) mounting the body back a bit further for grip

 

I own a hudy tire truer, use trinity tire tweek (apply 30 minutes ahead and wipe off before putting cars in track). I'd like to be a bit competitive but I also understand that I should drive "what works best for me". All that said, I get my best times running grippy natural JK tires. I can do a 4.1 to 4.2 lap time with natural tires and it's a more enjoyable drive. When I throw on wonder rubber I'm running like a 4.3 to 4.4 fairly consistently but it's definitely not easy driving. So I get it, run the naturals.. I guess my concern is there anything I might be missing that wonder tires aren't working for me? I use a difalco 281 for the most part (sometimes a third eye fet 2) and I normally run half brake and maybe a bit of choke and maybe like half sensitivity. Do I need to be running more brake for wonder to work better? Less? Is there something else I'm missing as far as maybe getting faster times with wonder rubber? I'd love to be content with just sticking with my naturals but it's racing and I always want to go faster

 

I forgot to mention, this is for flexi cars, mossetti chassis.. Wing cars I can get wonder to work great with.

 

thanks,
Mike

[Tim Neja]

You don't say what kind of track design you are running on??  That is a HUGE variable -- for example--I ONLY use wonder rubber on a high speed track like a King.  If I'm on a flat track--wonder is not the choice.

[chasbeeman]

Following for my own info

[slotcarone]

A lot depends on your driving expertise. What are the fastest guys using for tires? Have you had someone else try your cars with the two tire types for a speed check?

[studentdriver]

You don't say what kind of track design you are running on??  That is a HUGE variable -- for example--I ONLY use wonder rubber on a high speed track like a King.  If I'm on a flat track--wonder is not the choice.

 

Good point! I didn't even think of that for some reason when reading the other posts I saw mentioning running wonder. Right now I'm mostly running on a kingleman that has 1 large banked turn and the rest of the track is pretty much flat. There is a donut on thee opposite end of the large banked turn.

 

I know other folks somehow can run wonder tires and turn great times so that's another reason why I'm asking about how I might be able to.

 

thanks,

Mike

[studentdriver]

A lot depends on your driving expertise. What are the fastest guys using for tires? Have you had someone else try your cars with the two tire types for a speed check?

 

The hobby store I race at has a large following for drag and oval racing.. They do have a few series stop by but my options for others testing is a bit limited. I did have other folks drive my cars and they seemed to experience the same thing (faster times with natural tires).. BUT as far as I understand when the series stop by and race on the kingleman they do use wonder rubber.

 

I'm willing to admit I might just not be as good of a driver, no doubt but I guess I wanted to see if there might be anything I'm missing. Looking for hints and any secret sauce!

 

thanks,

Mike

[Bill Seitz]

Wonder rubber does not have to be hard. Soft and super soft wonder is available, and I can often use these tires over natural rubber. One advantage to wonder is that it wears longer. Lots of things effect what tires work best including track conditions mentioned and aspects of the car itself, especially weight and available downforce. I used to use soft, grippy tires myself for quite a while, but tracks seem to be getting more "stuck" as raceways allow rubber to build up longer with less frequent cleaning, and cars get lighter. Going from natural rubber to a hard or extra hard wonder is a big transition. I'd try an intermediate step using soft or medium wonder.

[Brian Czeiner]

One thing you haven't mentioned (or maybe I missed) is what are other driver's lap times? If you are competitive, just roll with it and keep it in the slot. Maybe put in a little more practice pushing your limits. Sometimes running something different leads to them chasing you.

[gotboostedvr6]

Winter is a strange bird.
Small hub wonder often does not have more grip than larger hub.
Soft wonder can be looser than medium depending on track conditions and chassis setup.

Message me your cell and Ill get you squared away.

[Danny Zona]

Make sure you log a lot of laps when scuffing in wonder rubber.

My home track it takes about 80-100 laps for the tires to hit thier peak.

We use a soft type of wonder rubber.

[dalek]

Maybe balancing the spur gear and wheels would improve traction.

[studentdriver]

One thing you haven't mentioned (or maybe I missed) is what are other driver's lap times? If you are competitive, just roll with it and keep it in the slot. Maybe put in a little more practice pushing your limits. Sometimes running something different leads to them chasing you.

 

You are absolutely correct! For the local GTP I'm at least mid-pack for qualifying and I need to go actually race (will be doing some local races).. The 1 thing is I just really like to try new things and understand stuff.. So while I should be somewhat content with the 4.3 I'd like to maybe see or understand if there is anything left to try is all... I'm also focusing more on other classes, etc..

 

All that said I think I'd like to be a bit faster so when I'm actually racing I'm not going my fastest just to stay mid-pack.. I guess consider it some "wiggle room"?

 

Mike

[studentdriver]

Winter is a strange bird.
Small hub wonder often does not have more grip than larger hub.
Soft wonder can be looser than medium depending on track conditions and chassis setup.

Message me your cell and Ill get you squared away.

 

PM sent! Thanks!

 

Mike

[studentdriver]

Maybe balancing the spur gear and wheels would improve traction.

 

Hmm, I did see a tire balancer but I'll have to see what's involved.. I did just get the truer about 2 months ago.

 

All good things to consider!! I'll see if I can catch a youtube video on balancing.

 

thanks!

Mike

[studentdriver]

Make sure you log a lot of laps when scuffing in wonder rubber.

My home track it takes about 80-100 laps for the tires to hit thier peak.

We use a soft type of wonder rubber.

 

Sure, understand.. Right now I'm trying what some of the other racers use for fast times and I believe it's closer to medium wonder?  My local track does have some rubber on it but what's interesting is I'm still faster with soft natural tires.. I'm just worried I'm going to be hitting a ceiling with those vs maybe somehow going faster with the wonder rubber.

 

Maybe

[MSwiss]

Some rubber and enough to support wonder rubber are 2 different things.

 

Some tracks just aren't sticky/rubbered up enough.

 

"BUT as far as I understand when the series stop by and race on the kingleman they do use wonder rubber."

 

Well, that's most likely because the track gets practiced on more, pre-race.

[Eddie Fleming]

 

Hmm, I did see a tire balancer but I'll have to see what's involved.. I did just get the truer about 2 months ago.

 

All good things to consider!! I'll see if I can catch a youtube video on balancing.

 

thanks!

Mike

You may want to look at James Cleave tech tips. 

 

He is very serious and takes things to the extreme, but for racing at his level that's the way it is. He has tip videos on almost everything and I am sure there are one or two on balancing.

 

 http://slotblog.net/...y-james-cleave/

 

http://slotblog.net/...eels-and-tyres/

[Jay Guard]

I'm a little surprised that nobody has mentioned this but generally speaking a harder tire will be faster on the straights and in the bank than a softer tire.  The softer tires will have a higher rolling resistance and also tend to "mush in" on the bank both of which will slow the car slightly.  I would say generally speaking you want to run as hard a tire as you can taking into account many of the factors mentioned above.

[dalek]

It seems to make sense that vibration would have an adverse effect on traction, even moreso when using tires with harder rubber.

 

But even if that is not the case, I would still balance wheels and spurs -- but that's just me.

 

Here's the link to a post I made in a Slotblog thread about balancing.  It contains a link to a Youtube video I made.  The whole thread has info you might want to check out.

 

If you watch the video I made, the main thing I do differently now is that I cut small strips of Crystal Clear Gorilla tape for adding weight to wheels instead of gluing on pieces of solder.

 

Note:  If nothing else, shorter setscrews will make spurs and wheels less out of balance.  But rather than buying short setscrews, you can make the standard 1/8"  setscrews short by grinding them.  NOTE:  DO NOT GRIND THE END THAT CONTACTS THE AXLE.

 

 

 

[studentdriver]

 

It seems to make sense that vibration would have an adverse effect on traction, even moreso when using tires with harder rubber.

 

But even if that is not the case, I would still balance wheels and spurs -- but that's just me.

 

Here's the link to a post I made in a Slotblog thread about balancing.  It contains a link to a Youtube video I made.  The whole thread has info you might want to check out.

 

If you watch the video I made, the main thing I do differently now is that I cut small strips of Crystal Clear Gorilla tape for adding weight to wheels instead of gluing on pieces of solder.

 

Note:  If nothing else, shorter setscrews will make spurs and wheels less out of balance.  But rather than buying short setscrews, you can make the standard 1/8"  setscrews short by grinding them.  NOTE:  DO NOT GRIND THE END THAT CONTACTS THE AXLE.

 

The video is currently marked private so I couldn't view. Let me know if you are able to update.

 

I can consider shorter set screws.. I have 2 of each class of car. Maybe I'll shorten just 1 car and see if there is any difference. I guess the obvious question is why not shorten the end that touches the axle? I'm guessing because it won't grip as well? Looking at the 1 cleave tech video it seems like he's shortening the end that makes contact...

 

 

thanks,

Mike

Edited by studentdriver, 03 September 2023 - 08:16 PM.

[studentdriver]

I'm a little surprised that nobody has mentioned this but generally speaking a harder tire will be faster on the straights and in the bank than a softer tire.  The softer tires will have a higher rolling resistance and also tend to "mush in" on the bank both of which will slow the car slightly.  I would say generally speaking you want to run as hard a tire as you can taking into account many of the factors mentioned above.

 

And that's pretty much why I want to understand how some folks can pull off running wonder tires. It might come down to just not enough rubber on track yet but I'm not 100% sure about that.

[studentdriver]

You may want to look at James Cleave tech tips. 

 

He is very serious and takes things to the extreme, but for racing at his level that's the way it is. He has tip videos on almost everything and I am sure there are one or two on balancing.

 

 http://slotblog.net/...y-james-cleave/

 

http://slotblog.net/...eels-and-tyres/

 

I bought his body jig but I'm too impatient to make it work correctly however I'm watching the balancing video now and it looks like something I might check into! I have to see if ERI carries a balancer and if it's in stock.

 

thanks for the recommendation!

 

Mike

[studentdriver]

Some rubber and enough to support wonder rubber are 2 different things.

 

Some tracks just aren't sticky/rubbered up enough.

 

"BUT as far as I understand when the series stop by and race on the kingleman they do use wonder rubber."

 

Well, that's most likely because the track gets practiced on more, pre-race.

 

Sure, I agree with everything you said. I think some of this is admittedly my lack of experience on race days, etc.. no doubt. That said I'm making sure I do my research to some capacity pre-race day. I'm going to try to make it to some races and see what options I have.

 

1 thing I'll mention is, my local track was cleaned and then they had retro stop by and race on it. I'm assuming this put a decent amount of rubber on the track then.. but this is a guess by me. I unfortunately didn't attend the retro racing weekend to see if folks were running wonder or not. I plan on trying to attend the up coming penn/jersey race day!

 

Mike

[dalek]

 

The video is currently marked private so I couldn't view. Let me know if you are able to update.

 

.... I guess the obvious question is why not shorten the end that touches the axle? I'm guessing because it won't grip as well? Looking at the 1 cleave tech video it seems like he's shortening the end that makes contact...

 

thanks,

Mike

 

 

Now I remember that I had changed the video to Private b/c I had decided that it really needed to be remade (but I haven't gotten around to doing it yet).

 

In regard to grinding the end of the setscrew that makes contact with the axle:  I can't imagine being able to grind it precisely enough to avoid not having it want to crawl on the axle when tightening.  In any case, grinding the allen wrench end has worked fine for me for many years and there's no risk of unexpected behavior.

[Bill from NH]

If I needed to shorten set screws, I don't, I'd try using a lathe. A collet chuck might be ideal to use.