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Is Retro too fast?


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#51 MSwiss

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Posted 07 October 2023 - 07:19 PM

Raceways have the ability to turn down the power.

 

The IRRA doesn't specify what the voltage has to be.

 

But you said guys would just gear their cars even more aggressively. 

 

Run a spec ratio and the deep pockets guys will just buy more motors.

 

Narrow the tires and the races will get messy.

 

I think flat tracks are the best solution but not every raceway had a flat track.

 

And when they do, guys usually prefer the easier,  faster track.

 

At the Sano I have racers who never run one lap on the flat track.


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#52 team burrito

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 12:58 AM

Now i remember why i quit Retro - too much bickering.


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#53 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 07:13 AM

I was talking with a one of the better racers at a recent Retro race and he said, "These cars are too fast." I have thought about that a good bit, and I cannot disagree. 

 

That's how I started this discussion and along the way it seems to have become Eddie wants to slow Retro cars down. I was not even thinking about slowing the cars until a very good racer brought it up to me, and I could see his point. I have mixed feelings about it. I understand pushing to go faster and I understand controlling speed and cost can help the hobby. So I started a discussion on the subject, and I have found it interesting.

 

Now what I really want is my 40 year ago sight and reflexes back. And to be about a foot taller, and while I am at it I would take my hair back too. Naw, I can do without the hair. 


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#54 Dominator

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 08:18 AM

Raceways have the ability to turn down the power.
 
The IRRA doesn't specify what the voltage has to be.
 
But you said guys would just gear their cars even more aggressively. 
 
Run a spec ratio and the deep pockets guys will just buy more motors.
 
Narrow the tires and the races will get messy.
 
I think flat tracks are the best solution but not every raceway had a flat track.
 
And when they do, guys usually prefer the easier, faster track.
 
At the Sano I have racers who never run one lap on the flat track.


I totally agree.


A motor is only as fast as the chassis it's in.
 
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#55 Dominator

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 08:25 AM

That's how I started this discussion and along the way it seems to have become Eddie wants to slow retro cars down. I was not even thinking about slowing the cars until a very good racer brought it up to me, and I could see his point. I have mixed feelings about it. I understand pushing to go faster and I understand controlling speed and cost can help the hobby. So I started a discussion on the subject, and I have found it interesting.
 
Now what I really want is my 40 year ago sight and reflexes back, And to be about a foot taller, and while I am at it I would take my hair back too. Naw I can do without the hair. 


Eddie, what you shared is just the thoughts of some racers in your area. Again I think each area needs to do what they think is best to keep racers coming back to support the raceways. Whether that is turning the power down, spec gears, spec tires, or all the above.
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A motor is only as fast as the chassis it's in.
 
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#56 Dave Crevie

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 09:08 AM

Will the last person to leave please turn out the lights?  :wacko2:



#57 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 11:22 AM

What is this running the motors black statement I keep reading?

Sounds awfully like two weeks to flatten the curve!

The better batches of CR102s could last thousands of laps geared with a 12. Black windings don't last thousands of laps.


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#58 MSwiss

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 11:51 AM

My running the winds black comments never referenced running 1,000s of laps but this comment from this year confirms racers get them black and run them multiple races afterwards.

 

Screenshot_20231008_114710_Messenger.jpg

 

Running a 12t on one track is not like running a 12t on another track.


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#59 Noose

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 01:18 PM

OK, my three cents.

 

1. Not everyone runs 12 tooth pinions at every race. Read my reports and you will see there is a variety based on the tracks.  Even on a King Stock Cars are usually geared 10/26, F1s 11/27. Oh and who has tried to tech for a spec pinion with 20-30 or more racers? You cannot count the teeth on most cars unless the rear is taken apart to allow a complete view of the pinion.

 

2. Having teched thousands of cars over the last 16 years I can tell you that those having problems are usually due to poor set-ups. I try to point them out to the racers but it's up to them to correct it and learn from it. Everything from body mounting, endless amounts of lead wire, guide freeness, frame straightness, bent hubs, etc. How many racers really check their cars after a race to ensure everything is OK?

 

3. Lots different controllers out there and and the one thing I notice with those saying Retro  is too fast is their use of very sensitive chips in their controllers. For example the typical Difalco comes with a 148 but some feel they need to run a 113 of even less when in reality they should try a 180.

 

4. Over-oiling fronts to the point it causes the rubber to come off the wheel.

 

5. Our tracks have a typical voltage of 13.6 to 13.8 and thanks to the raceway owners/staff all prepping them the same way it has taken the endless testing of tires out of the preparation. It is typically Wonder rubber run out here. Take your pick on which one you like due to cost, etc.

 

6. Motors get hot and some really hot on fast Kings and it's not all due to using 12 tooth pinions. Some winds get dark and as noted above the motor still runs fine for many more races. 

 

7. We have lost racers but not due to the speed. Old age, health, death, etc. We have seen an increase in younger racers. They haven't experienced the "fumes" yet (gas and perfume) and maybe with all those electric cars coming out it will just be the perfume.


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#60 Thom

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 10:20 PM

Just a curious thought that may or may not be relevant. Can someone tell me how fast is fast or too fast? According to whatever track you run on - King, flat, Paperclip, Grandstand - would feet per second be a good way to understand just how fast is fast? In other words is 20 fps to slow, is 25 fps what you like or just right, is 28 fps to fast?

Just so you know I’m in Omaha and the nearest tracks which I have visited in the last two years are Wichita 5 hours, Chicago 7 hours, Greeley 7.5 hours, and Denver 7.75 hours. I have been considering jumping in but it doesn’t help with gas near $4/gal., but today it is $3.15 and my trigger finger is getting itchy.


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#61 Bucky

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Posted 09 October 2023 - 12:31 PM

Can someone tell me how fast is fast or too fast?


I think this is largely being based on historic lap times in a class versus lap times at more recent events and varies from track to track.

I no longer live in a region that races Retro cars, but at my former local track the lap times for the fast guys have dropped a couple tenths in recent years. I think the times from a few years ago were a tenth or two faster than the preceding years, but I didn't race at that time.

 

Overall, the fast cars are ~.4 sec faster over a period of six or so years.


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#62 Cheater

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Posted 09 October 2023 - 01:20 PM

I was curious as to how much 'speed creep' has occurred over time, so I did a litle research.

Wanted to compare one class on the same track, so checked Can-Am at the Fall Brawl from FB I to FB XIII.

TQ at FB I was 5.276 secs. TQ at FB XIII was 4.641 secs, both set (I think) by John Gorski.

So, Can-Am TQ has been lowered by 0.635 secs on that track in a dozen years.
 
JimHT asked: 
 

Just a thought: is Retro growing or declining or static? 


I'm not going to take the time to compile figures, as there are other factors involved (pandemic, inflation, Premier races vs. regional series, etc.) but would hazard a guess that Retro is mostly static, after having declined slightly from the earlier years.


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#63 Noose

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Posted 09 October 2023 - 04:06 PM

Greg, a big reason for the drop in times since FB I is tires. Back then it was treated then Kelly Retros. For a number of years now it's been Wonder rubber. 


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#64 slotcarone

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Posted 09 October 2023 - 04:40 PM

Very surprised reading all three pages after coming back from vacation no one has mentioned adding weight to the cars to slow them down. Not that I am suggesting that. :)


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#65 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 09 October 2023 - 04:45 PM

Any idea what impact the high downforce Ti22s have had on lap times?
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#66 Noose

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Posted 09 October 2023 - 04:52 PM

We've been running them for a number of years and it has had some impact but then again the Lola has been used and has won races.

 

As for weight, the IRRA has had minimum weight requirements right from the start. It's rare to have anyone actually run min weight. For example, in stock cars the min is 120 grams. Most are in the mid 140s.  F1 is 100 and most are 114. 


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"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#67 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 09 October 2023 - 06:25 PM

I see a lot of you can or should not slow them down this way or that but I have not seen much yes or no as to should they be slowed.

 

Is that because nobody wants to say slow them or because nobody wants to slow them?


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#68 Brian Czeiner

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Posted 10 October 2023 - 09:55 AM

Coming at this from a different angle.
 
Are heats being run without crashing? There will always be crashes because there is no real fear of injury or major penalty putting you out of competition. 
 
Is attendance faltering or stagnant because going faster means average/new racers have no chance of winning?
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#69 Wizard Of Iz

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Posted 10 October 2023 - 01:45 PM

OK, my three cents.
 
1. Not everyone runs 12 tooth pinions at every race. Read my reports and you will see there is a variety based on the tracks.  Even on a King Stock Cars are usually geared 10/26, F1s 11/27. Oh and who has tried to tech for a spec pinion with 20-30 or more racers? You cannot count the teeth on most cars unless the rear is taken apart to allow a complete view of the pinion.
 
2. Having teched thousands of cars over the last 16 years I can tell you that those having problems are usually due to poor set-ups. I try to point them out to the racers but it's up to them to correct it and learn from it. Everything from body mounting, endless amounts of lead wire, guide freeness, frame straightness, bent hubs, etc. How many racers really check their cars after a race to ensure everything is OK?
 
3. Lots different controllers out there and and the one thing I notice with those saying Retro  is too fast is their use of very sensitive chips in their controllers. For example the typical Difalco comes with a 148 but some feel they need to run a 113 of even less when in reality they should try a 180.
 
4. Over-oiling fronts to the point it causes the rubber to come off the wheel.
 
5. Our tracks have a typical voltage of 13.6 to 13.8 and thanks to the raceway owners/staff all prepping them the same way it has taken the endless testing of tires out of the preparation. It is typically Wonder rubber run out here. Take your pick on which one you like due to cost, etc.
 
6. Motors get hot and some really hot on fast Kings and it's not all due to using 12 tooth pinions. Some winds get dark and as noted above the motor still runs fine for many more races. 
 
7. We have lost racers but not due to the speed. Old age, health, death, etc. We have seen an increase in younger racers. They haven't experienced the "fumes" yet (gas and perfume) and maybe with all those electric cars coming out it will just be the perfume.

 
Great points... Thankfully you gave us seven cents worth of points instead of just three. Or maybe it's seven sense.  
 
3. Controllers... A friend of mine bought one of the awesome, new Difalco Genesis 2 controllers with traction control and noticed that it came with a 162. Perhaps Jim's small part to save racers from themselves.  
 
7.  Age, health, death, etc... I think this is probably the biggest reason for a decline in racing participation. True in Flexi-style racing, too. A quick look through the "Eternal Podium" section will give you what could be an awesome A-Main at almost any event. 
 

I see a lot of you can or should not slow them down this way or that but I have not seen much yes or no as to should they be slowed.
 
Is that because nobody wants to say slow them or because nobody wants to slow them?

 
It's amazing how many side conversations have developed from your straight-forward question. Good, thought-provoking post.
 
I don't race Retro (not enough budget to race everything) so I don't think it's important for me to opine. But I will.

 

Personally, I don't think the speed of the cars has anything to do with racing participation. If the "powers-that-be" believe that speed is negatively effecting participation, then the board could simply adopt a motor with lower RPMs.


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#70 Phil Hackett

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Posted 11 October 2023 - 02:44 PM

Very surprised reading all three pages after coming back from vacation no one has mentioned adding weight to the cars to slow them down. Not that I am suggesting that. :)

 

 

You can't suggest this. :laugh2:


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