47 replies to this topic

[tossedman]

Hey y'all,

I recently bought a few old 1/24 Lancer F1 vacuum-formed bodies and I'm amazed at how much they wrap around at the bottom. Anyone know how they got these things off of the mold? Any pictures? Did they use a two-piece mold?

Thanks,

[Cheater]

Todd,

I have no pictures, but yes, multiple-piece molds were used to achieve such undercuts.

[Ron Hershman]

They could have been two, three, four, or even five-piece molds, depending on the body style.

[Howmet TX]

Here's the multi-part mould I made for this Plymouth Fury;

[tossedman]

Thanks, John.

That explains a lot. Sometimes I just need to see it to understand. The pieces on those F1 molds must be pretty small

What kind of a vacuum former are you using? Is it homemade?

Cheers,

[stoo23]

Whilst not being slot cars... we have even used male/female moulds to effect designs and detail, in some vac-form work done some years back.

So apart from the possibilities of it being a multi-piece mold... they may also have had male/female parts.

[tossedman]

Good point, Stewart; I hadn't thought of that. I'll take a closer look and see if I can see which side has more detail.

Whatever happened to the Lancer Corp? Did they go out of business or morph into something else? Wonder what happened to their molds...?

[Howmet TX]

My vac-former is very home-made, Tossedman. It's a wooden box with a domestic vacuum cleaner plugged into it.

I've done a few female moulds - they work well for the right sort of shell, and I use them for making transparent parts for resin bodies - but one limiting factor is that you need to have vent holes in various places on the mould to relieve any trapped air. On a conventional male mould, they are in the lowest points of the mould- in vents, intakes, etc, so they are discreet and easy to hide. On a female mould you need the vent holes on the highest points, which would equate to the roof of a coupe, where they might show up. The more relevant thing in my case is that a female mould is necessarily much bigger than a male mould (stop s******ing at the back of the class), and I don't have space on my vac-former...

Indy/F1s are good subjects for this treatment. Another advantage is that it's much easier to make a split mould for removal of the forming.

[Ron Hershman]

Whatever happened to the Lancer Corp? Did they go out of business or morph into something else? Wonder what happened to their molds...?

Lancer morphed into the "crafts" market in '70/71 making candle molds, candy molds, candy packaging, etc. They quit making slot bodies around 1977/78 and sold the molds to REH Distributing sometime in the '80s. The molds are still around and in limited production.

As for the "Lancer" corp today... I have no idea if they are still in the vacuum-forming business or of the current business name.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Howmet, I used to own and race a plymouth like that with a small hemi in it!

Grin.

Fate

[idare2bdul]

The old molds were also not having to pull Lexan which is much less forgiving of undercuts and sharp detail.

[TSR]

They quit making slot bodies around 1977/78

Actually, 1970.

The old molds were also not having to pull Lexan which is much less forgiving of undercuts and sharp detail.

MPC was first to pull Lexan bodies in 1966 with their Ford J, Mako Shark MK2 and MK5, and Offy Special. Lancer began pulling Lexan bodies in 1967 and did so until they ended slot car bodies production in mi-1970, corresponding to the birth of M.A.C., formed promptly after the demise of Lancer by mold maker Lloyd Asbury and two partners, John McGuyere and Barry Crowe. Dynamic pulled Lexan bodies from 1968 on.

The old Lancer molds were unceremoniously thrown into a 50-gallon drum by John Brunson, the money behind the vacuum forming company that had produced Lancer bodies since 1963. Robert Haines eventually traced and purchased the remaining molds (many were already missing) and has reproduced the Lancer bodies under his REH business until his father died. Now it is Ron's turn...

The LASCM also owns several of the original molds obtained from various sources.

[Ron Hershman]

Actually, 1970.

MPC was first to pull Lexan bodies in 1966 with their Ford J, Mako Shark MK2 and MK5 and Offy Special. Lancer began pulling Lexan bodies in 1967 and did so until they ended slot car bodies production in mi-1970, corresponding to the birth of M.A.C., formed promptly after the demise of Lancer by mold maker Lloyd Asbury and two partners, John McGuyere and Barry Crowe. Dynamic pulled Lexan bodies from 1968 on.

Your reply says two different times... first you say actually 1970 then go on to say until "mi-1970". How many Lancer Porsches were used in 1973 at the USRA Nats in Elyria???

According to Dave who worked at Lancer from 1964-77 along side Lloyd claims that Lancer never quit making slot molds or bodies until around 1977. While not too many molds were made after 71, they still made bodies when they got orders for them up til he left in 1977. He was the only pattern maker at Lancer after Lloyd left.

Dave has a few finished molds he made at Lancer that Lancer NEVER released. There were a few times that John Brunson would request a pattern to be made, then not release it.

[Steve Deiters]

Any idea of what the bodies were that the molds were made but bodies never pulled? Kind of a slot racing mystery of what might have been...

[TSR]

Your reply says two different times....... first you say actually 1970 then go on to say until "mi-1970". How many Lancer Porsches were used in 1973 at the USRA Nats in Elyria???

1970, mid-1970... it is a long 12 months in a year. Where is the contradiction? When I went with Lloyd to San Bernardino in mid-1970, the production of all slot car bodies had ceased and the company had completely converted to industrial vacuum forming. I defy ANYONE to show me ONE new model that was produced after that date. I visited the plant at that time, met John Brunson and did not see anyone producing slot car bodies anywhere, or for that matters, ANY molds or product in sight.

The "Lancer" Porsche used in 1973 was a product of the M.A.C. company but everyone called it "Lancer" then. In fact, M.A.C., Associated-Kirby, Champion, and Dynamic were the only companies left producing bodies at that time.

According to Dave who worked at Lancer from 1964-77 along side Lloyd claims that Lancer never quit making slot molds or bodies until around 1977. While not too many molds were made after 71, they still made bodies when they got orders for them up til he left in 1977. He was the only pattern maker at Lancer after Lloyd left.

Dave has a few finished molds he made at Lancer that Lancer NEVER released. There were a few times that John Brunson would request a pattern to be made, then not release it.

I had contact and a list of precise questions for Dave Susan that he declined to answer. In fact he wanted to be paid for his answers, and declined when he was offered cash for such answers and any mold he may still have. Rather odd. The only mold he showed me was that of a 1967 modified Lotus-Ford, probably the one tested but not driven by Foyt that year at Indy. I hardly see why such a mold would have been produced after 1970.
It is indeed possible that he made patterns AFTER 1970, but I guaranty you that none was released. It is also possible that some production MAY have been issued at the request of distributors after mid-1970 (one has to assume to REH), but unlikely since M.A.C., Associated-Kirby and Dynamic were filling the business.

In fact, Associated purchased the entire leftover unsold Lancer inventory in 1970 from Brunson, and sold part of it along their lines. In 1975, they still had TONS of brand new boxed Lancer bodies which were stored in the mezzanine of their Santa Ana plant. When they moved to Costa Mesa in the 1980's, they got a big 40' dumpster and threw them away.
One hardly see how Lancer could have sold more of the same when Associated tried everything including selling them to REH, which was declined.
REH only got interested in acquiring the leftover molds and pull new bodies once the interest for vintage stuff began creeping in.

Now, I do not know what happened before 1970 and after 1973 because I was not in the country before and I could not care less after. However, between early 1970 and the end of 1973, I was deeply involved in this hobby, worked for M.A.C., Riggen, Dynamic and was a close friend of Associated's Gene Husting, so I don't think I missed much then...

[Ron Hershman]

I had contact and a list of precise questions for Dave Susan that he declined to answer. In fact he wanted to be paid for his answers, and declined when he was offered cash for such answers and any mold he may still have. Rather odd. The only mold he showed me was that of a 1967 modified Lotus-Ford, probably the one tested but not driven by Foyt that year at Indy. I hardly see why such a mold would have been produced after 1970.
It is indeed possible that he made patterns AFTER 1970, but I guaranty you that none was released. It is also possible that some production MAY have been issued at the request of distributors after mid-1970 (one has to assume to REH), but unlikely since M.A.C., Associated-Kirby and Dynamic were filling the business.

Dave has been more than happy to reply to every question I have asked of him, free of charge. Dave never claimed to have made the 67 Lotus Ford after '70. He claims there were other slot car molds he carved and Lancer released after 1970. I asked him if he had kept any of the masters and he said I can do you one better and sent me a pic of the '67 Lotus Ford. He has more, but has yet to show them to me.

I can only report what the guy who worked there, during the time, claims happened.

[TSR]

He claims there were other slot car molds he carved and Lancer released after 1970.

As far as I can see and according to all the records we have compiled so far as well as accumulating a near-complete collection of bodies, there is no record of any NEW Lancer slot car body made after 1970. If there was one, which model would that be? Certainly Lloyd Asbury cannot think of one either. No advertising in any of the period mags after 1969 either. No record of "new Lancer bodies" in the various writers columns either.
Now with the economic circumstances of the slot car business at the time, the only bodies that could have had any modest sales would have been pro-racing Can-Am bodies. NASCAR was hardly on the map, T/A was basically ignored by the customers and virtually all RTR or kits being sold had some form of Can-Am body on them.
Unless I did not do my homework well enough, there is not a single Lancer Can-Am, NASCAR, F1 or Indy body model known post-dating the 1969 racing season in either 1/24, 1/32 or even HO scale.

So what "new" Lancer bodies would have been released, older models? And of what, and why since they could not even get rid of their existing inventory at the time?
I apologize for being of a rather skeptical nature but unless solid evidence is offered of otherwise, it sounds to me to be a tall story. I would love to be proven wrong of course. Can anyone shed more light on this?

[dc-65x]

This is probably old news but the Lexan March 707 doesn't show up in the Auto World catalog until I believe 1973. Maybe Lancer made them in 1970 and AW didn't carry them until 1973? Same for the Color Formed bodies although the McLaren and Ferrari were pretty dated by then???

[Rick]

What years were Rick's pictured bodies raced or unveiled?

If Lloyd left Lancer in 1969, why would they wait three years or even a year to list/sell a body?

[Ron Hershman]

Would the 1970 March 707 have been released in 1969?? If not, it would appear that there were molds made after 1970 at Lancer.

What's even more interesting is the fender ribs on the McLaren... How many Lancer M8Bs were there?

Isn't this the same body without the ribs???

[Rick]

Must be the world according to Gorp?

[tossedman]

Well, I knew somebody would know what happened. Who knew what a can of worms that would be? I was only ten at the time and not paying much attention to anything, Thanks for the info gents. Interesting reading!

Now a few more questions. What kind of plastic was used to mold these old F1s? Some of them are yellowing. Is the plastic weakening as this happens?

What bodies is REH still producing? Any of the F1s? Their web site doesn't say much.

Cheers,

[Ron Hershman]

What kind of plastic was used to mold these old F1s? Some of them are yellowing. Is the plastic weakening as this happens?

What bodies is REH still producing? Any of the F1s? Their web site doesn't say much.

Butyrate plastic.

REH has some F1s in stock.

[tossedman]

Thanks, Ron!

[TSR]

I recall the March 707 was presented to the public as well as a whole line of Marches F1, F2m and F3 at the Birmingham Racing Show in January 1969. Lancer, according to Lloyd Asbury, ceased operations as far as slot car body production in July 1970 (as I reported, MID-1970). Knowing the speed at which they were modeling real cars (generally within a couple of weeks of the real cars' appearances), it makes perfect sense.

However, I am not so sure that the body shown is the March.

The yellow and red tint bodies were issue from 1969 on as an attempt to offer "pre-painted" bodies to the RTR market, and were also offered on the retail basis. I have not seen too many models made that way and am only aware of the McLaren and Ferrari. The only colors I have ever seen are yellow and red.

The McLaren M8B is a 1969 car. One ex-works was owned by Oscar Koveleski, modified with the legal lower wing and run in 1970 under the Jerobee banner.