47 replies to this topic

[dc-65x]

..............However, I am not so sure that the body shown is the March.

The 1972-22nd edition Auto World:

[Ron Hershman]

I recall the March 707 was presented to the public as well as a whole line of Marches F1, F2 and F3 at the Birmingham Racing Show in January 1969. Lancer according to Lloyd Asbury, ceased operations as far as slot car body production in July 1970 (as I reported, MID 1970).

It just keeps getting more and more confusing.......

Back in this thread..... http://slotblog.net/...opic=5556&st=20 you posted the following.......

"That is because the tools already existed at Lancer. When Lancer shut down its slot car body operation in mid 1969, Lloyd Asbury took these recent tools with him and founded MAC with John McGuyere and Barry Crowe not in 1971 but in early 1970, when I met them. They began by making new molds and pulling bodies for Kirby and Associated before establishing the MAC name in early 1971, using several of the Lancer body tools."

In this thread...... http://slotblog.net/...opic=9873&st=20 you posted the following......

"You obviously don't know the whole story about Lancer and Asbury/Brunson as PARTNERS. I was the one who brought Lloyd home from San Bernardino in 1970, I know a few things about what happened."


So..... now we have photo's from a AW catalog that shows the Lancer bodies/molds that were made/sold either during or after Lloyds time.

You claimed that Lloyd left Lancer and Lancer shut down it's body operation in mid 69 and Lloyd started MAC in early 70. Then you claim that you drove Lloyd home in 70 the fateful day he left Lancer.

Then you claim MAC was started in early 70. How was MAC started in early 70 if Lloyd still was working at Lancer until mid 70???

Then you claim Lloyd took some molds ( the MAC molds ) from Lancer because they had shut down the body operation in mid 69. Now if Lloyd took the molds from Lancer when they shut down in mid 69 as you claim, how did you drive Lloyd home in 1970 on his last day there?

And..... if Lloyd took home the TI-22, Lola, Abarth, etc molds in mid 69 as you claim..... then how did Lancer release the same models/molds if Lloyd took them with him?

You can plainly see the Lancer TI-22, Lola, Abarth, Ferrari 612, ARE PLAINLY DIFFERENT from the MAC TI-22, Lola, Abarth and Ferrari 612 models that were sold by MAC by looking at the Auto World listings. None of the MAC models have the "ribs" on the front fenders ( as the Lancer molds ) as well as other obvious details.

Sooooo..... if Lloyd took the Lancer molds with him, it would appear that someone else at Lancer carved these molds after Lloyd left as Lloyd took the molds with him as you claim.

So if you drove Lloyd home from Lancer in 70, then it would appear that the MAC molds were carved after Dec 31, 1969. Not quite period correct.

[havlicek]

Confusing for sure, but what's not confusing is how nice that Lancer March in Rick's post is!

-john

[Howmet TX]

No problem getting it off the mould anyway...
Very cool! I may be kidding myself, but it does make me want to try and make some of my own as good...

Respect to the old masters!

[TSR]

Ron,
It was MY dating error, sorry for the confusion. I wrote mid 1969 and of course it was mid 1970. Indeed I was not even in the country in 1969!
M.A.C. started business in late 1970 weeks after Lloyd left Lancer. I was introduced to Lloyd in May 1970 by the man who sponsored me and was also the person sponsoring Maurice Philippe (of Lotus and Parnelli Jones-Vel Miletich fame).

Now look at every Lancer body shown in the AW catalog in 1972: ALL all old stock, nothing new except for that "March". ALL remaining distributors were stuck with huge amounts of unsold bodies... some already 3 years old or more. AW was simply struggling to sell the Lancer old stock as were Baldwin, REH and all others.

The "March" shown sure does not look like a March and indeed is a 1970 model... I have seen the body before, always believed it to be a 2-liter Abarth (very similar to the one produced by Dynamic also in 1970) stuck in a box of a body that may have never been produced. A little mystery indeed... The real March 707 looks so different with its F1-style nose, no one could have confused it with anything else:

CLICK HERE

There was a 1/32 scale March 707 body pulled in the UK in early 1971 by, I believe, GT Models (Gordon Tapsell). The contrast in looks compared to the Lancer body is amazing. The body, as the real thing does, had separated front wings like an F1 car, the rear wing was mounted between raised struts molded into the body etc. You can see the body in an issue of Model Cars (UK).

Now compare the Lancer "March" body to the Dynamic Abarth body (as used in 1971 by Pete Zimmerman on his steel pro cars for Tom Hansen and John Anderson to drive in the Tucson race) and the actual 1970 2-liter Abarth, and they are just about identical.
Hence my serious doubt that the Lancer "March" may in fact be a March, but an Abarth boxed into whatever was available as a box in a time where liquidation was the word du jour...
I could not find the exact picture I am looking for but here is a similar 1970 2-liter Abarth (missing the side fences) seen in January 1970 at Daytona and driven by Al Consentino:



The exacting Dynamic (and, as I contend here, Lancer) body was patterned after a similar model, copied by Abarth on the 1969-1970 Ferrari 710 Can-Am "wedge" body and modified with deep side fences and built-in spoiler.

And still no "new" model made after July 1970 or earlier...

Now look in the Miniature Auto Racing issues from early 1971 and you can see the first M.A.C. ads, which I personally produced. I was approached by Lloyd to work with them just WEEKS after I drove his GT350 back from San Bernardino in July 1970. I began to work with them in January 1971, and remained as a consultant for them until July 1973 when I ceased all pro-racing activities.

Confusing indeed, so I will try to put the most exacting dates according to published matter to sort it out, but my contention remains: not ONE new model was introduced by Lancer after mid 1970, and all Lancer bodies advertised after that date for sale were simply new old stock.
Please ANYONE, prove me wrong!

[Ron Hershman]

So the MAC molds were carved after 12-31-69. A clear violation of D3 rules.

"Any and all vintage or exact replicas of 1960's Lancer, Dynamic, Revell, Du-Bro, Russkit and Champion bodies representing a known Can-Am car."

While I am not calling for the "outlawing" of the MAC or Kirby bodies...maybe the rules need a bit of tweaking?

All I know is what Lloyd himself told me about leaving Lancer in 1969. That was also backed up by Dave Susan in writing who also worked at Lancer and recalls the fateful day Lloyd left lancer in 1969.

David also says there were molds carved and released ( not many ) after Lloyd left and Lancer never "shutdown" the slot car body production. Lancer continued to pull slot car bodies when ordered up by the Dists' up til Dave left in 77. Lancer still had boxes and all. After he left Lancer, he has no idea what happened.

When Bob Haines purchased the Lancer molds in 1987 I believe it was, Bob shipped the early bodies he pulled in original Lancer boxes Bob got when he bought the molds.

[Ron Hershman]

I could not find the exact picture I am looking for but here is a similar 1970 2-liter Abarth (missing the side fences) seen in January 1970 at Daytona and driven by Al Consentino:

That car was raced in Oct 26, 1969 here as a 3 liter...... http://www.racingspo...0-26-photo.html

The 69 Abarth 2 liter was raced on 9-14-69........ http://www.racingspo...9-14-photo.html

Here is the 1970 2 liter raced in the F2 Championship looks similar to a MAC Abarth



Here is another version of the 1970 Abarth that ran in 1970 FIA European Sports Car Championship for 2 litres Prototypes. Looks like the MAC Abarth.



Here is the 1971 2 liter Abarth that looks like the MAC Abarth

[Bob Campbell]

That car was raced in Oct 26, 1969 here as a 3 liter...... http://www.racingspo...0-26-photo.html

The 69 Abarth 2 liter was raced on 9-14-69........ http://www.racingspo...9-14-photo.html

Here is the 1970 2 liter raced in the F2 Championship looks similar to a MAC Abarth



Here is another version of the 1970 Abarth that ran in 1970 FIA European Sports Car Championship for 2 litres Prototypes. Looks like the MAC Abarth.



Here is the 1971 2 liter Abarth that looks like the MAC Abarth

This is why I feel that Abarth's should be legal. There's proof that they raced prior to 1970, but PDL claims he can't find any.

Bob C.

[tonyp]

Isn't the issue more they didn't race in the Can-Am rather than the date?

[TSR]

This is why I feel that Abarth's should be legal. There's proof that they raced prior to 1970, but PDL claims he can't find any.

The M.A.C. Abarth is this one:



This model is a 1970-71 model, and obviously not pre-1970, so indeed it is not D3 legal despite that we let people run them until the available supply is exhausted so as to not hurt the dealers who have some.
What proof is there that it ran in 1969? Am I missing something?

So the MAC molds were carved after 12-31-69. A clear violation of D3 rules.

The M.A.C. molds of the few models allowed in D3 were carved by Lloyd before he formed the new company with his new partners. The molds made AFTER 1970 have not been allowed.
Technically, the O/S molds you made should also be illegal by the same thinking.

That car was raced in Oct 26, 1969 here as a 3 liter......

Not the same car, it is a larger model and quite different from the little 2-liter Consentino raced at Daytona. Abarth models can be very confusing as each car is unique in its own way.

The M.A.C. body and its copies are definitely from a car made in 1970 and racewd through 1972, while the Dynamic and what I suspect the Lancer "March" body is, are of the 1970 2-liter "MC" sports car, a one-off wedge raced in hillclimbs in Europe by Pierre Maublanc. I still need to find a picture of the car, no time right now.

Now, how could Lloyd have left Lancer in 1969 when I was not even in the USA yet, and when I went to help him get his stuff and his car out of Lancer in July 1970?
Logic dictates that it would be impossible, would it not?

Now it is indeed possible that Lancer MAY have produced more bodies in the 1970's but it sounds very far fetched to me considering the huge amount of unsold inventory in the hands of the distributors and the fact that Associated was offered the entire remaining inventory, bought it for a dime on the dollar and was itself unable to liquidate it, that led to throwing a full 40' container worth of the boxed bodies away when they moved in the 1980's.
Since the only real activity in the remaining raceways was pretty much of pro racing or copies of such, and only a limited amount of mostly Can-Am bodies were used by all, individuals, manufacturers and retailers, why would it have been any different?
And again, what post mid-1970 Lancer models are out there? None I can see...

There are lots of little mysteries to be uncovered, but I have to apply FACTS and LOGIC to it. We can all speculeate ad aeternam, but the only solid evidence of the contrary would be... post 1970 NEW Lancer bodies. I cannot find ONE. Can anyone?

[Ron Hershman]

That car was raced in Oct 26, 1969 here as a 3 liter...... http://www.racingspo...0-26-photo.html

I was referring that this car, that you pictured, was raced in 1969 and is not the same Abarth that the MAC Abarth was modeled after.

[Ron Hershman]

The M.A.C. molds of the few models allowed in D3 were carved by Lloyd before he formed the new company with his new partners. The molds made AFTER 1970 have not been allowed.
Technically, the O/S molds you made should also be illegal by the same thinking.




Now, how could Lloyd have left Lancer in 1969 when I was not even in the USA yet, and when I went to help him get his stuff and his car out of Lancer in July 1970?
Logic dictates that it would be impossible, would it not?

So what your saying is that Lloyd left Lancer in 1970 and your also saying that Lloyd carved the MAC molds prior to 1970 while still working at Lancer? Seems like that would be a conflict of interest to Lancer, IMO.

[TSR]

No, it is not what I am saying, it is what you are implying. If Lloyd left, as I know he did, in July 1970, he had ample time to begin a new company and carve some molds by the end of 1970, which he did. Now, the D3 regulations do not pertain as when a mold was made, but of which MODEL they were of, and I quote:

Bodies must be originals or exact reproductions of pre-1970 Can-Am or Sports/GT bodies by Russkit, MAC, Lancer, Associated, Dynamic etc.

D3 regulations specifically named PERIOD manufacturers to limit what your own company and others would naturally attempt to do, I.E. improve performance with more modern aero knowledge of what works and what does not. The O/S "long" Ti22 is an example of what D3 directors felt would degenerate into yet another form of Flexi racing after a while of allowing such. Look at the trouble you have currently in IRRA to figure out what is legal or not to see what can happen when regulations are not specific enough regarding an important part of the directives and INTENTION. D3 directors also specifically banned modern "interpretations" on vintage bodies for both aesthetic and functional reasons. D3 is catering to retro tech and did not want it to be unappealing to potential new racers as other forms of current slot racing are.

Now back to the Abarth: the model you show has nothing to do with either M.A.C., Dynamic or Lancer bodies. So I fail to understand why there is a question there.

[Ron Hershman]

Now back to the Abarth: the model you show has nothing to do with either M.A.C., Dynamic or Lancer bodies. So I fail to understand why there is a question there.

I was just trying to show "the" Abarth model that DID IN FACT run in 1969. I never said it had anything to do with the MAC, Lancer or Dynamic bodies except for the 70-71 Abarth model that is obviously different and similar to the MAC version.

[Ron Hershman]

D3 regulations specifically named PERIOD manufacturers to limit what your own company and others would naturally attempt to do, I.E. improve performance with more modern aero knowledge of what works and what does not. The O/S "long" Ti22 is an example of what D3 directors felt would degenerate into yet another form of Flexi racing after a while of allowing such.

The long TI-22 is a longer version of the short TI-22 with no aero advantages built in. The body was lengthened to fit the long guide length chassis/cars being run and not have the rear tires sticking out past the rear of a short body and trying to cover it with a rear spoiler.

[Ron Hershman]

But see... your rules state two different things....

"Any and all vintage or exact replicas of 1960's Lancer, Dynamic, Revell, Du-Bro, Russkit and Champion bodies representing a known Can-Am car."

AND

"Bodies must be originals or exact reproductions of pre-1970 Can-Am or Sports/GT bodies by Russkit, MAC, Lancer, Associated, Dynamic etc."

Pick one and correct your rules????

[TSR]

Pick one and correct your rules????

Where do you see a contradiction?

[Noose]

Gents..ah hum..this was a thread about body molds and how they work and not who did what to whom and when it was done to determine who wins the peeing contest. Can we split this thread then so the current discussion can be held elsewhere?

[TSR]

Actually Joe, the thread starter DID ask the question, "Whatever happened to the Lancer Corp? Did they go out of business or morph into something else? Wonder what happened to their molds...?"

[Rick]

Actually Joe, the thread starter DID ask the question, "Whatever happened to the Lancer Corp? Did they go out of business or morph into something else? Wonder what happened to their molds...?"

me me me me, I can answer that one. They are in boxes in Cinci..............

[tossedman]

I was just wondering what they looked like. I've seen lots of home made molds but was curious to see what these commercial multi-piece molds looked like.

Todd

[TSR]

Todd,
I will be at the LASCM museum this PM and will take pictures of some for you including some that indeed were never produced by Lancer.

[Ron Hershman]

Back in this thread.... http://slotblog.net/....php/t5462.html


The following was asked.... "When did the Lancer 917s come out?"

You responded........ "1971, and it is definitely a racing body, totally out of scale. But boy, did it work well! It was first used by Midwest and East Coast pros, Limpach, Montague... and eventually I switched to it and found how good it was. It was only bettered when the MAC 1973 Pro Bodies were released, the Porsche 917, Gulf-Mirage and McLaren M20."

I asked the specific question.... "Who was carving the bodies for Lancer in 1971 and after Lloyd Asbury left???????"

Your response was.... "Lloyd, as an outside consultant."

Now I can only ask this........... If Lloyd was screwed over at Lancer and he left there...... why would he be an outside consultant when he had his own body business and why help a competitor???

So if the Lancer 917's came out in 1971 as you claim...that proves Lancer came out with bodies after Lloyd left in 1970 per your posts in this thread.