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#1 dc-65x

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 11:24 PM

I won a small pile of maybe very early '70s slot car stuff. It's from NJ and I'm a SoCal boy (well... old man) living in NorCal. I'm finding the stuff kind of interesting once you scrap the crud off to see what's underneath. For example-a-mundo:

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YIKES!

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Put that thing out of its misery!... No, no, let's crack it open instead. Where's my hazmat suit?

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DOUBLE YIKES! OK, hose off the dirt with solvent and hit all the rust with a wire brush:

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Looks like an early Champion CEE can, Champion Blue Dot magnets, and the arm looks like a Champion blank if the Good Dokktor's school'n has rubbed off on me :unsure: .

The endbell is an early small bearing Mura kind of hacked down to fit the can. It does have vents cut under the brush plates and a goop shield soldered on:

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The arm is clockwise timed which kind of surprised me and the whole comm welding and tying is unusual to this left coast boy... I mean old man :blink: :

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The arm looks handwound with some healthy-sized wire:

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So I think I have the motor in a state that it won't deteriorate further. I've stored it like so:

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The magnets are protected in a foam-lined plastic motor box from Proformance Racing, the arm is in a tube from Alpha, and everything else is in cheapo zip lock bags from China :shok: .

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#2 TSR

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:08 AM

Rick,

Could be a Ben Krumm armature, S24, wound on Champion blanks with the gray coating (.007" lam). He did his comm wiring that way and that would be just about the timeframe...

Someone opened the holes on the Champion can, and the assembly with no shunts is a bit amateurish, but there is a brass goop shield so this motor was in an open-class car at one time and with the Blue Dots, must have been pretty fast.

Thing is, it could only have driven the gear on the right side of the car according to the position of the goop shield on the motor and of the timing of the arm... meaning that it was fitted in a transitional chassis when racers went from endbell-side drive to can drive, and the motor was made as a mirror image to what the guys were doing, probably to use an existing chassis...

That rust will clean up with Naval Jelly and a good wash in solvent with a wire brush. The endbell will clean like new. :)

Philippe de Lespinay


#3 Jeff Easterly

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:23 AM

Due to Rick's excellent photographic skils ( Yes, please... take a bow, Rick... :thank_you2: ) I am forced to ask this question...

HEY! DOKK! :clapping:

I see at least two, maybe three comm-cuts on this arm...

Whadda YOU see???? <_<

Great photos, Rick... :ok: ... Hope to see it restored...

Take care...

:good:

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#4 68Caddy

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:42 AM

I guess I need to learn about motors? Jeff's comment "maybe three comm-cuts on this arm..."and then Philippe's comments on the "Thing is, it could only have driven the gear on the right side of the car according to the position of the goop shield on the motor and of the timing of the arm..." :shok:

Have to say it's Greek to me but I need to sit down with a gearhead to teach me about this or explain what's going on. ;)

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#5 Darkron9

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 01:46 AM

I see the three comm cuts, too. The first one was probably to do the initial comm truing. Common practice was to run the motor around something like a King track for a few laps with the brake disconnected just to get the epoxy hot and to let the arm go "out of balance". After a few initial laps, the motor would be gently run with the brakes reconnected until it could be heard to slow down a little. Doing this would allow the arm to get hot from the "inside out" and really cook the epoxy. Then the motor would be disassembled and the arm would be sent to a balancing service, like Camen Balancing. Gil Gundersen taught me to do this to all of my new arms.

The motor might have been run in a few heats and sent in for truing and balancing two times during its career. Since the tabs aren't showing, the comm on this arm might be able to take another cut. Interesting that on two of the poles, the balance holes are on the center line, but on the third, the holes are staggered.
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#6 Jeff Easterly

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 02:21 AM

... Interesting that on two of the poles, the balance holes are on the center line, but on the third, the holes are staggered.

Thanks, Ron...
Gunner is one smart cookie... and I remember that EVERY armature that I sent-out to true-up and have re-balanced ALWAYS came back faster... the inside-out heating of the armature epoxy certainly makes sense...

Great observation as to the location of the drill balance marks... I remember seeing the flat-bottom drill balance marks on Mura D-can armatures, like all the "Cukras Signature" pink-can D-can motors I drove during that era, and never gave it a second thought... I guess I expected the pros at Mura to know where and how-much armature material needed to be removed to create an in-balance condition... With the design of the blanks they use today, with the web and crowns so thin, I doubt they could employ this type of balancing on newly-wound production arms...

I still think it's a really cool motor... I have one of those Champion C-cans, and it's been opened-up, but not as much as this one... I've heard them refered to as "Trinity cans" too, but I've never had anyone confirm that designation...

Thanks, Ron... Great to get the ol' noodle thinking, even if only for a moment! LOL! :laugh2:

:unsure:

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#7 dc-65x

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:38 PM

Thanks, everyone.

That break-in and rebalance procedure was very interesting, Ron.

Dokk, in the owner’s defense, the motor did have shunt wires but like the rest of the assembly, it wasn't done to a very high standard. The endbell wasn't lathe turned to fit the can but rather just hacked up. The worst thing is the random placement of the end bell mounting screw holes in the can. Bummer.

This next motor's setup is nicer with a lathe-turned endbell and properly located mounting holes. It is also neatly notched for half rail clearance:

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Blue Dot magnets again and a nice setup:

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But then we have the armature. It looks to be another Ben Krumm on the same Champion blank perhaps?

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The bummer is it has a very bad case of "Valley of the Comm". :shok: :

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Perhaps swapping arms with the previous motor to rebuild this motor would be the way to go. For know everything stays in its own package.

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#8 Jeff Easterly

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:56 PM

The second motor is nice, Rick... Cleaned-up nicely...

I always try to use the older, full-length magnets if I'm setting-up a C-can with a long-stack armature ( Gp 15, Gp 20, or vintage open arm)... The added interaction between the extended magnet face and the stack length seems to provide the one thing that a slot racing motor always needs... BRAKES! :shok: ... LOL! :laugh2:

Have you measured the "trench" on that comm yet? ... You might be surprised and find it's only a few thousandths deep, thereby allowing you to turn it back true... As lovely as that arm is, it would certainly be worth the effort...

Like you, I'm a West Coast guy, so I'd never known about Mr. Krumm ... Wish I had, looking at his lovely work, eh? :wub:

Take care, Rick... Catch you later...

;)

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#9 dc-65x

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 03:14 PM

Right, Jeff, I'll cut the comm before I jump to any conclusions. I'll just get these motors cleaned up enough to see what they are and hopefully stop the corrosion process.

Here's an interesting one. It's a Champion 16D can with the big bronze bearing but before the side vents were added:

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That's a late generation Mura 16D end bell with, unfortunately, a broken bearing housing:

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Cracked open it has Champion Blue Dot magnets with their two-piece magnet shims...

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... and a lovely Thorp single 24 clockwise timed arm:

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Here's the arm cleaned up a bit. It looks nice and I haven't even cut the comm yet :wub: :

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And all packaged up:

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#10 Jeff Easterly

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 04:16 PM

Yee-haw!!!! :shok:

A S-24 Thorp!... Great find!

If you grew up down here in SoCal, Rick, you remember when John wound armatures in almost every flavor... His double 29s were legendary... and I suspect they tested the Mura "no-melt" claim MORE than ONCE, eh?? LOL! :laugh2:

Great old Thorp arm, with the phenolic retaining shims... I have one of those set-ups to send to John, for a future project someone might run... I don't need it, and someone from the Right Coast certainly would enjoy running it... I run two-hole Green - MPP cans... ;) ..

As you say.... ONWARD! :)

;)

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#11 dc-65x

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 10:47 PM

Here's a beauty in the rough... well maybe not. :laugh2: :

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This looks like it could be an older endbell drive chassis for a 16D that's had a B-motor set on top of the frame rails. :blink: :

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Not being overly impressed, here's what I pulled off of this one:

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The can was all chopped up and the endbell, too. I saved the end bell hardware and this:

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The drop arm is the later style for a Jet flag. The magnets are the big honkin' Super Bs and the arm...

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It could be a late style clockwise-timed Thorp?

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It's very nice. It just needs its comm cut.

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#12 TSR

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 10:18 AM

Rick,

The one above looks like a stock Mura arm to me, while the arm in second motor you showed with the C-can looks indeed like a Krumm.

The chassis and motors are amateur built but make for good parts...

:)

Philippe de Lespinay


#13 dc-65x

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 12:01 PM

Hi Philippe,

Yes a Mura is most likely but hey, I'm trying to recoup my investment here :laugh2: . Seriously, what caught my eye were the thicker epoxy coating, almost neat windings, and clockwise timing. I know Mura did CW timed arms but they seem less common. Here is the arm I use for comparison:

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They look pretty close so I happily substituted my reality and hoped it is a Thorp. Well, that was before I took the arm out of the package to take these pictures. I only have a couple of these later Thorp arms without the phenolic retaining shims and they are both engraved... crud:

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Unless others have Thorps like this without the engraving my investment has slipped a bit :D . This did give me the chance to clean that corrosion off this Thorp beauty. Otherwise it would just continue to get worse.

Thank you for you input, Philippe. I have a chassis I hope you will look at soon :) .

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#14 TSR

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 12:19 PM

Rick, my pleasure! This is what we live for. And please keep them coming!
I will post more Emott chassis pics today as promised.
Happy Thanksgiving all! :)

Philippe de Lespinay


#15 Jeff Easterly

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 01:12 PM

Hey, Rick...

My recollection of Thorp arms stems from the 1968-69 era, when I ran his double-29 winds... Those armatures then didn't have the phenolic retainers, a feature that came along later, along with the wind marking and the timing marking... I remember John winding armatures for both CW and CCW timing, to appeal to those who had built chassis for Mura or Lenz motors... Bill Sr. wound arms for both directions, too, as my Steube 20 ran in my Lenz-drive Chris Burlew chassis... Putting a Thorp arm in a 16BB can with Mura X88 magnets, and using a Mura "no-melt" endbell with Mabuchi brushes and Tradeship motor springs was a popular set-up, when we were still racing inline Can-Am cars...

Good-looking arm... I see the infamous "green goop" insulation, which tends to make me believe it was produced in the '70-'71 period... The Mura blanks with the "green goop" insulation were the most poular blank out here on the Left Coast, with Checkpoint, Hetchler, Zimmerman, Thorp, Mura, and Lenz using them during that time...

Great series of photos, bringing back some great memories! Take care!

;)

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#16 dc-65x

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 04:48 PM

Here's another Champion CEE can in a partial chassis. The chassis looks pre-CEE can to me with the large motor angle and big bend on the non drive side half rail:

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It's pretty nicely made but again no floppy pans. It makes me wonder if the center section, perhaps without even the drop arm, is the only original part:

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It's got a big honk'n 48T Faas 64p spur gear that's in great shape. Those gears were made so 45t through 48t were all the same .750" diameter... cool:

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Here's the motor:

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Cleaned up it reveals a can that's nicely drilled and countersunk for endbell screws and a creative clearance cut for the rear axle. The endbell is an Associated Mini Max lathe-turned to fit the can, more Blue Dot magnets, that nice Faas gear and perhaps...

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... another Ben Krumm arm:

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#17 TSR

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 05:29 PM

Yes, very likely... :)

Keep digging this up!

Philippe de Lespinay


#18 dc-65x

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 06:57 PM

My son is working today and won't be here for Thanksgiving dinner until late so I may as well keep playing ;) .

Next is a little-used Mura B Production motor, first generation I believe:

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It's had a soldering iron melt into the end bell and the can is all scratched up. I think it will be a good candidate for a complete NOS type restoration. Let's crack her open:

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All the parts are ready to go with new brushes and endbell. The cans stripped and ready for a coat of gloss black paint and to have the Mura sticker applied. The armature looks like new. It's a single wind of pretty big wire and meters .2 ohms:

Posted Image

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#19 dc-65x

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 05:34 PM

Here's a Phase III chassis for a 16D with a Mura B-motor stuffed in it:

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I do see a hint of green inside that motor:

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Man, another chopped up endbell...

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... and can:

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Inside we have a bubble gum arm and some Super-B magnets at least:

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Here's what I salvaged:

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What's engraved on the arm :blink: :

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:unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

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Can anyone help ID this engraving?

Rick Thigpen
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#20 TSR

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 05:41 PM

Could it have been engraved by Mura for Mike "Tango", who sold these under the Nutley brand?
Only someone like Tony P or Bob Emott can tell for sure. :)

This is like finding a Tyrannosaurus Rex skeleton in the La Brea tar pits! :laugh2:
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Philippe de Lespinay


#21 dc-65x

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Posted 27 November 2009 - 05:57 PM

Could it have been engraved by Mura for Mike "Tango", who sold these under the Nutley brand?
Only someone like Tony P or Bob Emott can tell for sure. :)

I hope they can help...

This is like finding a Tyrannosaurus Rex skeleton in the La Brea tar pits! :laugh2:

That's for sure what cleaning this stuff is like.
:laugh2: :D

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#22 dc-65x

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 03:50 PM

I bumped this up in the hopes someone can help ID this engraving?

TonyP, are you out there :unsure: ?

Posted Image

:unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

Posted Image

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#23 Cheater

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 05:05 PM

It sure reads "Tango" to me, Rick.

Gregory Wells

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#24 Bill from NH

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 05:50 PM

Rick,

Did you get all these "jewels" in the same eBay lot? It's quite a haul if you did. :)

Bill Fernald
 

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#25 dc-65x

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 06:35 PM

Thanks, Greg, Tango it is. Please keep your reading glasses handy as I have another one coming up :blink: :) .

Hi Bill, Yes, it all is coming from this same eBay lot:

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I better get going on this stuff. I want to have it cleaned and sorted so I can get back to the Emott B-motor build and then some "lost causes" :) .

Here are some Champion 3/4" front wheels for 3/32" axles complete with a 3/32" Arcolite axle. I haven't seen these things before, only in 1/8":

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And all spiffed up:

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Here's a before...

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... and after, on some Riggen 3/4" X 1/8" axle fronts:

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What's next :unsure: . Surprise! Another B-motor :shok: :laugh2: :

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What's with the Super B magnets with the yellow dots? And, I want that Mura Sticker:

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This stuff works great to lift the sticker:

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This one has usable components...

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... including a nice Mura open arm:

Posted Image

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Rick Thigpen
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