18 replies to this topic

[Maximo]

Dokk or other learned gentlemen,

What exactly dies NCC 22 mean pertaining to armatures? How do these compare to the wild winds before this classification was started?

-Max

[One_Track_Mind]

Hi Max,

I will take my shot at what I think I know about this?!

NCC stands for National Competition Committee, they were the rules maker back in the day.
The 22, I believe meant that you could build the car for $22.00.

Now, this is where I'm lost. As to what size wire and how many winds were placed on that particular arm, that will have to answered by someone else.

[Bill from NH]

Grp. 22s were handwound Grp. 20s, same wind, same diameter arm blank. This was before Grp. 27 came about. In the day, Bill Steube Sr. and Joel Montague wound the most popular ones used in the northeast.

Max, show us a photo of what you have.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

In the day, pro motors were commonly 24 single winds or 27 doubles or similar.

The Gp20s were a spec class with spec factory chassis and spec motor and a 27 wind.

The rules later changed with Group 15s being a wire and brass chassis with a milder still wind. Usually defined as a "group 12" wind but no tag, only not being balenced(allowing people like me a range of improvements).

A 15 was supposed to be a simple possibly scratchbuilt chassis with ONE hinge. The Limpach 888 was typical.

A 27 was a 20 wind in a scratchbuilt chassis using 2 hinges. Most people took something like the 888 and added floppies, or the Parma Stock 15 chassis (later appearing as Group 18).

Fate

[Maximo]

Gents,

I don't have one but there is one on eBay.
I want to find or build a semi-hot motor in a Mabuchi FT16D can for use in my Crazy Cox Chassised Cuc's!
I want some quick but not so hot that it melts after 15 laps or more! I was hoping that maybe this was the anwser, but it sounds too potent!

-Max

[don.siegel]

If I remember right from racing in Seattle in 1974-75, the original Group 20 was for a spec motor, as Fate describes, and a spec anglewinder chassis, produced or at least marketed by Champion. But for us builders, this was a bit frustrating, so Group 22 was created to enable us to race scratch-built chassis with the spec Group 20 motor, while at the same time avoiding the expense and horsepower race of the open Group 7s.

Don

[Slotgeezer]

Don remebers it like I do....

High cost was starting to become a problem w/ slot racing, & the manufacturers wanted to insure that everyone would stay involved in the hobby, instead of throwing up their hands in frustration for needing to "re-invent the wheel" every month...

Mura/Lenz, Champion, Dynamic, Cobra, Associated, et al got together, & created Group 20... Champion brainstormed a chassis that proved very durable, as thousands of these things are everywhere... Both the early & late versions... They updated the style of chassis periodically, so many different versions exist, & are marked "NCC20" or NCC20/22"... The intent was to run a series of races along w/ the National USRA series, so that the average guy on the local level could compete w/ his peers, & not get his clocked cleaned by the factory-sponsored racers.... I built-up a few of these, & they didn't handle badly... But, they were heavy, so driving them WAS a challenge!

Mura/Lenz & Cobra figured-out the best wind to use for the armature, & sold ready-to-run versions of the motor, along w/ Dynamic & Champion... I've owned my share of Mura 20's, & Champion 20's... 38 turns of #27 wire, on an "open" arm blank, w/ 20-25 degrees of timing... Biil Sr. wound his "Steube 20" armatures w/ 35 turns of #27, & had his name on the arm stack, along w/ the "NCC20" tag between the poles, over the windings... As these motors & armatures became more popular, the "GP22" tag was used, to differenciate the "stock" GP20 arms from the 35 turn "hotter" GP22 arms, for the scratchbuilder's class ...

Monaco Miniatures in Buena Park, CA had a nice Red track, & they held "run what'cha brung" crash-&-burn races there every Wed. night... Almost everyone ran Mura & Steube 20's, in an MPP or Green-cut early C-can, w/ the "B" endbell & the spacer plates, & the late after-market 36D brush hoods... W/ DZ's, white-dots, or blue-dot magnets, these motors were fast, cool-running, & easy on the pocketbook... I enjoyed building & racing these armatures, & a friend recently gave me an old GP22 arm, to use in a future project...

There are more people out there, w/ more personal insight into this subject, I'm sure... I hope they add to the discussion, as these are the kinds of stories that need to be remembered about the hey-day of slot racing in the early to mid-70's....

Thanks, everyone ... Take care, & good racing!


Jeff Easterly

[MG Brown]

Maximo, on Nov 29 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

I want to find or build a semi-hot motor in a Mabuchi FT16D can for use in my Crazy Cox Chassised Cuc's!

Max- back to your original question... would a Super 16D arm give you what you are looking for?

I haven't looked lately but there usually are a few on eBay. Try a 25 degree timed arm.

[don.siegel]

Jeff,

Thanks for that very clear explanation and story! I remembered about the chassis, but not that there was a hotter "Group 20" arm... not even sure those made it up to Seattle when I was racing at West Seattle, Empire and Greenwood...

What years are you talking about here?

Don

[Zippity]

http://img.photobuck.../motors-079.jpg

[Slotgeezer]

My pleasure, Don....

I remember the Group 20 motors & the Champion pan chassis showing up in 1970, to coencide w/ the pro racing series being sponsored by the national USRA organization... Group 20 races were to be held in conjunction w/ the 6 pro USRA races that were to be run that yr. ...

The Monaco crash & burn races were during the '73 - '75 era... I lived within walking distance of Monaco, & while between jobs enjoyed going there to spend my time away from the TV set...

This was the era when the anglewinder chassis sections first appeared cut-out of .040 or .047 sping steel... Boy, I heard LOTS of horror stories about wasting an entire package of Dremel discs, trying to conplete a center-section... Sadly, the two Chris Burlew-built anglewinders I had him build me were "lost" when my ex-wife trashed all my possesions.... I had a Lenz 24S in one, & a Steube 20 in the other... Frank Pretzman could do-up a body for me in less than an hour, & I wasted quite a few McLaren M8A's trying to become a better driver ( unsuccessfully, unfortunately! ) ...

Take care, Don.... & good racing!


Jeff Easterly

[havlicek]

Quote

This was the era when the anglewinder chassis sections first appeared cut-out of .040 or .047 sping steel... Boy, I heard LOTS of horror stories about wasting an entire package of Dremel discs, trying to conplete a center-section...

aw go on Jeff. Steel is "the good stuff"

...it just takes a bit more effort


-john

[Zippity]

Beautiful

[havlicek]

...thanks Zip That was one of my favorite builds (concept by S. Gross/much better versions by Steve O'Keefe)

-john

[Champion 507]

David - thanks for starting this thread because I've wanted to know what the difference between a 20 and 22 is. One of the Auto World catalogs from back in the day has a pic of one of those Dynamic stamped brass anglewinder chassis with a Mura D can in it and calls the car a Group 22 but I never knew what it stood for since the tracks were closed and I was out of slots in mid 1968. The only way I found out about it was I had bought some vintage arms from a friend 15+ years ago and one was in the bunch. It's tagged NCC22.

Jeff - Thanks for your detailed post also. Very good info here.

Nice chassis John. Would one of those $15 diamond Dremel cutoff wheels work better for making a steel chassis?

[havlicek]

Hi Doug,

I think the diamond cutter wheels might be slow and make the job more tedious. I think the diamond cutters are great for very small detail work and the reinforced and regular (thin) cutoff wheels are good for rough cuts...cutting faster (although not as cleanly). Anyway, cleaning up the cuts is where the difficulty seems to be since tool steel and spring steel are nearly as hard as a file.

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

We did NCC in late 68. I was on the local committee. Very cool, the idea of national rules. Mostly we had no real rules and tracks all over were doing "classes" to limit costs to keep people coming in. THEN, in 1968, a Amain capable pro-car was about $150 on the hoof. At the time, the usual burger flipping job for a teen was about 75c an hour!

Around here there were 8 small "companies" that would build you a car for that sum. And the A-B-C mains would have these cars, below that would be usually dynamic kits and such.

So, a lot of tracks were running some sort of "Group 12" catagory. This was a car limited to either a 12 buck rtr or the bits that added up to 12 bucks. 12 would buy you a dynamic.

So, in late 68, we set these rules for nationals. Group 12 rtrs/kids. Gp20s were supposed to be the next step and a little more costly. Then open.

Group 20 was a spec class the first year with a champion multi hinge plated chassis, and a spec Mura group 20 motor and was required to retail for 20 bucks. The rules also required that champion and mura sell their stuff to Riggen and the like cheap enough so that they were label cars.

A bit later, as everyone was unhappy, work alike chassis were allowed in 20.

Anyway, the Dynamic G12 anglewinder and the Champion Group 20 anglewinder were both generally avaialbe in 1969.

The Cucs could be had with the standard 16d of 70 which was can drive and 65t/30 with standard ceramic magnets ca 400g. Much more power and the flexy nature of the chassis made them difficult to drive. I never saw one in a group 12 race that would run in the A-b or C mains once the Dynamic anglewinder came out running the same motor. John, if you do the project, you might think about reinforcing the chassis to cut down on flex.

You have the technology. The real problem with the cuc in racing was the small tires which made it work wouldn't be legal. This is the era of the Arco "Tech Chek" which required 3/4 fronts and 7/8ths rears and 5/8 max wide tires.

Anything I can do to help is on offer.

Fate

[havlicek]

Quote

I want to find or build a semi-hot motor in a Mabuchi FT16D can for use in my Crazy Cox Chassised Cuc's!

...as in cast alum/magnesium?

Quote

John, if you do the project, you might think about reinforcing the chassis to cut down on flex.

Hi Rocky, I don't build chassis for other people...never have. There are many better and faster builders that wil do that, but if it's the chassis I'm thinking of, what flex???

-john

[TSR]

A bit more info regarding "Group 20" and "Group 22" was discussed HERE.