235 replies to this topic

[idare2bdul]

it's grand time for you to dump those funny self-advancing/retarding comm motors and move into the TSRF arena.

I just keep hoping you'll grow a set and opt to support real horsepower. This is why Vikings were feared and the French renowned for sewing pretty white flags to surrender!

But since I've been insulted, I challenge you to race these critters with the same rules minus the motor requirement like you did when you and Mike were young. When did Team Checkpoint turn into low horsepower advocates?? How the mighty have wimped out. Maybe Tore will let you hold his One Motor trophy to try to jog your memory.

[TSR]

When did Team Checkpoint turn into low horsepower advocates??

Since it has become fun.
The lap times turned by all three top qualifiers yesterday would have been a King track world record in 1970. That with major single-24 horsepower. 8)
Pretty fitting for a Retro Can-Am race, is it not?

What I recall is that to achieve a 4.4" then, you had to have a hand-built motor that would cost serious dough today, an expensive chassis, and an even more expensive Goy-ski kontroller if you could even get one. Today, one can build a competent chassis for peanuts, buy an 8-dollar motor, and 65-buck PM controller and win. The guys using Ruddock controllers to race Retro Can-Am are sure wasting their money: the fastest laps I turned were with a stock cheapo non-adjustable PM unit. Some day, I might even get the handles painted. 8)

[S.O. Watt]

Ahhh, but remenber Dkk, the new tracks are MUCH faster than the old stock American Kings. Bite is better, turns are all banked a bunch more, too. I'm willing to bet Tore's $20 that they are around a sec quicker.

[TSR]

Ahhh, but remember Dokk, the new tracks are MUCH faster than the old stock American Kings. Bite is better, turns are all banked a bunch more, too. I'm willing to bet Tore's $20 that they are around a sec quicker.

Absolutely, but in the case of low-power cars like the retro Can-Am, it makes much less diff, maybe 3/10ths as shown between the old and the new Kings at BP.

[Ron Hershman]

[Absolutely, but in the case of low-power cars like the retro Can-Am, makes much less diff, maybe 3/10ths as shown between the old and the new Kings at BP.

The old BP King track was way faster than an American King track.

Bring your 4.4 BP car to Mac's Tom Thumb in Columbus, OH and let's see how fast it will go there.

I can asure you won't be punching the donut in Columbus.

I would be amazed if you could break the 5 second barrier.

Today's tracks are soooooooooooo much faster than the tracks of the '70s.

How fast do GT-12 cars go at BP on the new King track??? 3.8 or faster, I bet. How fast does one of your old '70s Gp 7 cars go at BP??

Here's your sign.

[S.O. Watt]

Ron, I think ol Dokk is suffering frome either CRS or a case of selective memory. Them old AR Kings are not even CLOSE to what is called a King today. Narrow braid, bumps, flat donuts, barely-banked finger, no elliptical routing, tighter radii, etc. Not to mention the new Kings have better wiring and power typically. Yes, even that last bullet is noticed by "low power cars".

[Dirt Trackin It]

GT-12 cars run under 3.0; fastest lap I have seen is 2.8 or so. Even 4-1/2 NASCARs run in the 4s.

[obnoxious001]

GT-12 cars run under 3.0; fastest lap I have seen is 2.8 or so. Even 4-1/2 NASCARs run in the 4s.

Mike is being conservative with the 4.5" NASCAR numbers, several guys including him have been under 4 seconds in races, down to 3.77 or something practicing. 4.5" NASCARsrun 4.0s to 4.2s in the weekly races.

I bet Ron meant 2.8s for the GT-12s.

A couple of "vintage" brass pan cars have run into the mid 3s, one with a modern group 12 motor, the other with an '80s Group 20 motor, both with '70s-style wing jobs on OS Ferrari coupe bodies.

Adam Friedman has run some of his vintage cars with early open motors, but not sure what kind of lap times, and how hard he has run them.

[Jairus]

Adam Friedman has run some of his vintage cars with early open motors, but not sure what kind of lap times, and how hard he has run them.

Pretty hard, if I know Adam . . .

[TSR]

They ran at about the same speed as they did then, but on very light spray glue and driving very conservatively.
I think that the difference between the AMF/AMRC blue King track I remember and the ones today is a full second per lap. I have a pretty good memory and because of my long absence from racing (1973 to 1994), I can really tell the difference better than many who never KNEW the old tracks or have not raced in recent time.
So what, we are having fun with the Retro Can-Am and if some here are not, they are very welcome to race something else. Like, wing cars.
We don't WANT faster motors, and certainly not more expensive ones. We are having FUN, our races are GOOD and very COMPETITIVE, and tell me which USRA single class runs 35 entries for their standard monthly races.
New 2007 rule I will suggest to the Powers That Be:

Article 6, Par 2: Anyone bitching and moaning about the FK motors and their lack of power will have 10 laps deducted from their end-of-race lap total.

:x

[idare2bdul]

We don't WANT faster motors

It's sad watching your heroes get old.

[Foamy]

We don't WANT faster motors, and certainly not more expensive ones.

That's because you don't know how to BUILD a motor these days.
Cheap unbuildable motors are foolish economy.
When I overhear several people say that they are going to buy a dozen motors at 9 bux a pop to "find a good one", it is just silly.
The Nor-Cal quacks have been running Parma Rotors with American 16D spec arms for a few years in similar cars.
Those motors are about 45 bux to build, and will last until you run out of comm.
I don't want to hear "I just grabbed some random motor and it was a jet".
A random motor out of really how many?

/rant

[TSR]

When I overhear several people say that they are going to buy a dozen motors at 9 bux a pop to "find a good one", it is just silly.

This has been partially addressed for 2007 for the Retro F1 racing with selected handout motors that are marked and will stay under lock at the raceway.
I would like to point out that I have seen too many boxes FULL of "blueprinted" 16Ds at 45 bucks a pop before, and I think I would rather see a box FULL of 9-buck motors at this time until we can find a good solution to the problem.

I used a single motor for the last race, randomly selected in a box of new TSRF motors. I did not even test it, took it to the raceway, compared it to the Falcon Mike had selected for me and it was a bit better on brakes, so I kept it for the race. No time for checking anything else, we went racing. Zoom.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

As ya'll know, I have maintained my last inline pro car from '68, that F1 Cooper that P has posted photos of.

And you know what? The Rad Trax king was a full second faster than period kings. The old BP was faster still, the new one is faster even STILL. Lots more than a second.

The car is a 1.5" F1 inline, 16D 28s wind, Associated 3/4" fronts, 7/8" rears.

We have a successful program and a lot of good racing.

For motor builders? Well, again, I intend to have motors for fun. Mikey, I will race you any time because I like you. And Steube, Tore, and especially Foamy. So, as I plan on being at the April convention . . . you guys wanna do a "shootout" just for US?

Fate

[TSR]

. . . leave the nuclear horsepower to those with the bottomless wallets . . .

Well said.

[Foamy]

. . . leave the nuclear horsepower to those with the bottomless wallets . . .

You are totally missing what I said. At this point, FK racing is the "bottomless wallet" racing. Example, Mike B spent what, 125+ bux plus tax on motors for the race? The fastest one qualified for the A-Main and promptly croaked in the first heat. That same $ would have made three 16Ds that could be raced all year.

[idare2bdul]

I'll stick to hand-out FKs, and the new Euro motor

How about allowing a dab of epoxy to secure the comm? No speed advantage, just reliability? Nobody has asked for nuclear horsepower. The fastest combination proposed is a balanced 16D.
Good race report. Don't dislocate your arm patting yourself on the back, Dokk!

The January Kingleman race should be a war! Who will win???

[jimht]

Foamy said:

At this point, FK racing is the "bottomless wallet" racing

No doubt some folks will always spend more than others to compete, but is that representative of what the majority is doing?
And, will there be as much interest if the additional complication of rebuildable = faster motors is added?
The same logic that seems to be working for OMO applies here: eliminate the variable that really costs the most in time and money.
Sure, someone can still buy bunches of cheap motors trying to come up with a better one, but look what happened.
We know the racer that's willing to spend is not going to stop spending if a different motor is used.
But what about the racer that's participating because the motors are cheap and they all run "about" the same: slow?

[gascarnut]

At this point, FK racing is the "bottomless wallet" racing. Example, Mike B spent what, 125+ bux plus tax on motors for the race? The fastest one qualified for the A-Main and promptly croaked in the first heat. That same $ would have made three 16Ds that could be raced all year.

IMO, the only time the "bottomless wallet" syndrome is valid is when the guy who wins regularly is the one spending $125 on motors for one race. Right now, best I can see, no one's bottomless wallet is buying them a podium in D3 CanAm.

Also, $125 might buy three 16Ds, but it also bought Mike B. enough FKs to run for another 8 races, too. Just because one motor croaked does not mean the others are throw-aways.

[idare2bdul]

Mike Boemker will be pleased that you placed me in second spot behind Jesus.

Probably because I would expect you to place yourself first!

To an outsider this probably looks pretty unfriendly, it's not. It's really a minor point in an otherwise very sucessful and fun series. Dokk and I get along OK based on the fact that I'm bigger than him and mentally unstable. 8)

My experience with blueprinted 16Ds is that the difference between them is usually measured in thousandths, not hundreths, and that the American balanced arms are very reliable. To be honest most of the guys in this class seem to be like Jeff Easterly, they show up they race, they don't care where they finish. That's not really a bad thing.

In many years of racing I've never been in a class with this much disparity in performance. The closest I came was in RC electric cars when the factory racers' batteries were an advantage the non-factory racer couldn't overcome. That's not the case here. Our problem is that buying a motor is a crap shoot, and so far one I'm losing. It's also a problem that for 6 months was denied to even exist.
PdL has made a kind offer of supplying TSRF motors, that would be preferable to our current system. Making the Falcon V the official motor might also work. When the Proslot motor becomes available in reliable form, based on its performance I'd probably prefer that. What I'd really like to know now is there a compelling reason to not allow the commutator on these motors to get a drop of epoxy to prevent shifting?

[Larry LS]

That would be okay, Mike, except for how far you might advance the comm before applying the epoxy. :naughty: :naughty: :roll:

[KenMiles]

. . . leave the nuclear horsepower to those with the bottomless wallets . . .

You are totally missing what I said. At this point, FK racing is the "bottomless wallet" racing. Example, Mike B spent what, 125+ bux plus tax on motors for the race? The fastest one qualified for the A-Main and promptly croaked in the first heat. That same $ would have made three 16Ds that could be raced all year.

Hi Dennis, racers.

Until now, I've bitten my tongue out of respect for Paul Sterrett's two-month-old gag order barring negative criticism of Division III.

But with this, the cat's outa the bag, so here goes -

Dennis, I don't believe Jeff Easterly is lost on your point. But I do believe Philippe has been very selective of considerations, ignoring the false economy argument of $8 and $9 motors. I seriously doubt racers will be down with purchasing randomly-selected TSRF motors expecting the results Philippe had at the last Can-Am.

In support of your argument, I could not help notice the rows and columns arsenal of motors Team Sonic (?) had laid out on the table.

~~~~~~

My personal race story goes to the beautiful offer made by Mike Steube, who lent me three motors to try for this race.

My old 'fast' S7 had finally slowed in pre-race practice. As much as I love this wonderful crowd and great racing, I am unwilling to re-enter the FK motors roulette at the sales counter.

No matter. Mike Steube's motor offer meant more than any other in my racing experience. I appreciate Can-Am, and regard it as the best time I've ever had slot racing. But otherwise, my Can-Am racing is now finished, as the motors policy excludes my racing budget. The point you raise on 'false economy' is not lost on me.

ThanX to everyone, and especially to Mike Steube, my inspiration to slot race again.

:mrgreen: 8)

Ken Miles modeled in red clay,

[Larry LS]

I have never bought more than two or three FX motors or any other motor at any one time. I have not had a real need for more to test or look for THE hot one. If you are in it to win that much, why are you playing the DIII fun game. Go back to Div I or II.

I might get a good one, an average one, or a dog. I make do. There are things to be done with it besides giving up . . . SCMs can't, I guess.

If I get a real dog like a couple S7s I got, I may have to buy one more or switch but thats about it. Of course, I am old and slow so who cares? Why do I even bother to come down to BP? Sheer waste of my time and others.

As far as going with that turd 16D overweight piece of junk, I would rather quit slot racing. I have not raced one in at least 15 years or more. I think there is one broken one in a drawer here somewhere to remind me how bad they suck everytime I happen to see it . . .

Now a C-can motor like the Speed Fx is a bit different story, as it can be made to handle somewhat better. But it's still a bit overweight.

Maybe a three-motor limit can be put on the selected FK motor chosen and they have to be bought from the Div III supplier with a serial number on them.

The fun part ot DIV III is the scratch building of chassis and the Can-aAm cars themselves. Plus the people who come to have fun.

If it is all about winning, why are there any racers beyond the first eight in the A main? Let those eight run, crash, and burn to find the one big winner. Or maybe the fast qualifier should be the only big winner. Why fight it out beyond that, seven of them will lose!!

Second place in any race is still the first loser. So why really bother with the race? So if you don't make the A main go home, watch the gam or mow the lawn. It would be more productive.

I come down because of the fun and the people who show up. Not because I have to win (a joke) but because of the building, the fu and helping others by promoting scratchbuilding. The race is secondary to me. It is just some icing I can lick off the big cake of fun.

Just another point of view of why winning seems so important beyond anything else to some. That the cost will drive them on or to lose their interest when it becomes too much to deal with. Why did 35 racers even show up? Only one can win in reality. So get a life.

[KenMiles]

H,i Larry.

At 35 entries, the racing is as many things as there are racers. Some are in it to win, but not everyone. It's not like there's any single reason people race - there were probably 35 individual reasons why each racer raced our last Can-Am. I do not dismiss what you get out of racing, so why would you demean what anybody else gets out of it? I've stated my case, and reduced no other racers enjoyment in the process.

I really like you Larry, as a person and as a slotracer. But if defining what anybody else should enjoy by your personal standards is what you're all about, get your own life.

Apologies, :mrgreen: 8)

[TSR]

To an outsider this probably looks pretty unfriendly, it's not. It's really a minor point in an otherwise very sucessful and fun series. Dokk and I get along Ok based on the fact that I'm bigger than him and mentally unstable.

So is the comm on that little unstable motor you are using.

Tell you what, Mike and Dennis: this Saturday at BP, Tore "John" Anderson will bring the prototype of the new Anglewinder class car fitted with the Pro-Slot motor featuring the new American-made arm. There will be your chance for you experts to race with a real slot car motor, while this pitiful Retro Can-Am class with its mickey-mouse rear-view mirror motors will be reserved for the old folks and the beginners. :mrgreen:

That is unless Hershman builds me some Pro Slot blueprinted jobs, eh! 8)