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John Cukras' '69 car


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#1 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 11:57 PM

Saturday at BPR, John Wakamatsu showed me a John Cukras car from '69 of which Wakamatsu now is the proud owner.
After seeing the car I took photos of the car because it had a body feature which may be the earliest example of a wing car.
Cukras told me that he raced this car in Florida in '69. It is a complete car (unaltered) from that period which still has the original body and rear tires.

I assumed that the earliest wing cars (with side dams) occurred in the early '70s (by Slotbog's own Dokk). Well, maybe John's car is the first or one of the first known cars to use side dams (although not as high as today's wing cars). John said he had never seen or raced a car body with side panels/dams prior to racing this car in Florida in '69.

Here's some photos of John Cukras' 1969 anglewinder with body by ? (notice the initials just below "Bods After Midnight"). John doesn't recall who gave him this painted body. It's apparently painted by "Bods After Midnight".
Does anyone out there know who could have produced/painted this body for Cukras?

John Cukras holds his 1969 anglewinder. John recently was given a clean bill of health by his doctor. That's great news, John!

P1130926_m.jpg

P1130921_m.jpg P1130918_m.jpg

P1130919_m.jpg P1130922_m.jpg

P1130924_m.jpg

KeithPosted Image
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#2 team burrito

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 01:00 AM

We were running full air control on our cars per 1968 NCC rules up in Fogville. It was called Group 27 and the body had wrap-around spoiler, diaplanes, trim tabs, all that stuff. The chassis was open and the motors were cut-up Group 20s. That class was a blast!

As for the first wing car chassis, around 1970, Steve Kessler (AKA Spiderman) show me a lightweight wire chassis with hardly any brass at all. It looked like the beginning of wing cars as we know it today. :rolleyes:
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#3 Jairus

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 01:16 AM

That chassis seems more like mid-1970 than '69 to me.
(But what do I know...)

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#4 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 01:26 AM

The latter part of 1969 was the year that plate steel chassis became popular. John's '69 car is probably typical of those raced that year until the steel plate cars became popular.

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Team Rolling Hills circa '66-'68


#5 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 01:28 AM

We were running full air control on our cars per 1968 NCC rules up in Fogville...

I thought NCC was established in 1970?

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#6 Gus Kelley

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 04:16 AM

Hey All!

I'm gonna say we were running full side damns in '68 very similar to John's car with the rear spoiler maxing at 3/4 inch. The majority of the chassis were much lighter than John's car with plumbers. Several were Iso with tilt pans. Nor-Cal boys used to almost always be considerably lighter in their chassis than So-Cal boys.

A lot of the tracks up here were over 250 ft. My home track at that time was C&M raceway and the main track we ran on was 308 ft with the smaller track I believe to be 270 ft.

When I attended the Hemisphere Race in '68, I brought three cars. Two of which were Iso style angle-winders with floppy pans. Those two cars were considerably lighter than a lot of the cars I was able to spy on. My cars were all wrong for that King track as we didn't have any in Sacto and none in the bay area in any of the series.

I remember buying a few Kovacs painted bodies and mounting them on the cars with much less spoilers as per the rules being used.

I had two different motor styles also. The armatures were all long stacks with the stacks separated at two spots to allow thread to be wrapped around the windings. The can assemblies were 16D Mabuchis with bearings at both ends and 13Ds with the sides cut out and magnets expoxied in. People that did look at my cars made a lot of comments on both chassis and motor.

Also at that time, most of the front runners cars really RPMed by the time they hit the bank. My motors were built with torque in mind and I had as much, if not more speed at the bank.

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#7 Gus Kelley

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 04:42 AM

Hey Russ!

Spidey is supposed be back living in the Bay again. I roomed with him at the Western-States in '76 or '77 at, I believe, Circle T Raceway.

Is it possible that he showed you a "Thingie"? They were very common in '65 thru '67. They were extremely light. They were of course inline, with a single .063" rail wrapped around the motor mount up to the guide with an .047" or .032" perimeter rail on either side with small tabs soldered front and back with self-tapping screws retaining the body. The last year of thingies had large side damns only.

On the tracks in Nor-Cal these were the thing to run. There was a track near Mura's factory that was over 400 ft per lap and is was something to watch those things fly around it. Also I went to "A" Street Raceway in San Leandro many times when I was 10-12 years old to run my cars. Never actually raced there, as I was just dropped off while my folks were visiting an old friend whom had grown up with them back in New Bedford, Mass.

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#8 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 04:55 AM

Keith,

If you can find out, ask John if the race where he ran this car for the first time was at the track in Tampa, FL or the one in Naples?

Michael Rigsby

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#9 tonyp

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 07:02 AM

The wraparound air dams got longer and longer until they went past the front wheel wells. That eliminated the little tabs we used to put over the front wheel wells to stiffen the body. From there they just got higher and higher.

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#10 TSR

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 07:22 AM

Indeed, if the NCC was founded in late 1969, no NCC races took place until 1970.

The earliest form of "wing cars" are the 1967/1968 NorCal "thingies" fitted with Choti bodies and large side dams. I was a doubter myself until clearly confronted with clear and physical evidence plus direct testimonies from more than one actual actors.

Front and rear spoilers first appeared on pro-racing cars on Mike Morrissey's well published 1966 Team Russkit McLaren-Elva. A straight clear-plastic rear spoiler was supplied in the regular Russkit slot car kits from 1967, in their Chaparral 2 and 2D, Lotus 40 and McLaren MK2 kits.

For 1968, virtually all period documents show the use by all the top pros on both coasts of straight rear spoilers, with a flat front diaplane.

By 1969, the rear spoiler began wrapping around the body, forming a small box. Such die-cut rear spoilers were marketed by Pete Von Ahrens and reflected the state of the art of pro-racing cars. Small down force-generating winglets stapled (no one used glue yet) on the top of the front fenders were a quickly passing fad that still made the NCC regulations published in 1969 and illustrating clearly the state of the art aero package of top-level pro cars.

In 1970, Lee Gilbert was first to introduce small side dams on each side of the front fenders.

By late 1970, this had evolved in the complete wraparound seen on this particular car shown in the opening thread. Assuming that all components are original to the car, I would personally place it in 1971, for several reasons:

1) Assuming that this is the original motor and unless it is a one-off hand-formed can by either Bill Steube or Bob Green, the Mura C-can was not available before mid-1970 (and that is a clear and documented fact), and it is unlikely that a 16D-size Mura motor would fit in the allowed space.

2) The Kirby/Associated body of this Ferrari 612 was not available until 1970 (another documented fact).

3) I do not believe that the Riggen "grooved" fronts were available before 1970, but I could be wrong, I need to check the Riggen documentation on this.

4) I cannot recall anyone using non-hinged side pans until 1972, or a chassis wire crossbar of this design (not using a brass-plate reinforcement) until well after 1970, but anything is possible there.

5) The style of air control is more 1971 than anything before, as seen in this other 1971 car built by Bill Steube Jr, that was a sister car to the Mike Steube, Tucson USRA-winning machine of early 1971:

1971-steube-paschal-tucson-car-1.jpg

I was a direct and very interested witness of the technical evolution on the ground at that time and remember things quite clearly, as I was involved with the M.A.C. body business. Since the demise of MRJ, I also wrote several race reports for the SoCal USRA for Miniature Auto Racing and MC&S and am quite familiar with what pros used then on both coasts, and have lots of pictures to prove it. A study of these period magazines (including the Morrissey/Cukras papers, MC&S, Car Model, MAR etc.) plus the surviving cars still with their original bits tell the story clearly enough.

Lots of people today THINK that certain things and events took place at a certain time, but factual evidence is often different. :)
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#11 Ron Hershman

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 09:32 AM

The Kirby/Associated body of this Ferrari 612 was not available until 1970 (another documented fact).

Then why is it legal to use in D3 Can-Am???

#12 tonyp

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 09:36 AM

I saw that coming. LOL...

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#13 TSR

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 09:56 AM

Then why is it legal to use in D3 Can-Am???

???

I don't know what you are looking at, but I don't see it listed and I do not even know if anyone makes a repop of that body.

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#14 Ron Hershman

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 10:02 AM

O/S and TrueScale both do. ;)

#15 tonyp

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 10:03 AM

PdL,

That's the body you guys used when you came to Nutley with the high thin Mylar side dams that ended right behind the front wheels? That was a good body. When I changed to that it really transformed my cars and I won my first pro race and a couple in a row right after that...

Great body until the glue killed it and made racing basically a one-body class.

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#16 jimht

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 10:15 AM

The chassis is too much like an 888 or a clone thereof to be a one-off Pro build.

Solder joints look like the sort of stuff Jan and Lee (and others... ;)) would crank out for distributors using Parma brass parts. More Midwest/East Coast mid-Seventies style than West coast. Need to see it from the top to be sure.

From a thread here:

The 888 and the 1972 Nats...

Posted Image


And as far as other comments regarding how things used to be... those who survive history get to write it as they remember it, right or wrong.

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#17 Noose

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 10:15 AM

Uh... the statement reads that the body wasn't available until 1970 not that it is a 1970 body. The car is a 1969.

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#18 Ron Hershman

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 10:51 AM

Uh... the statement reads that the body wasn't available until 1970 not that it is a 1970 body. The car is a 1969.


Well there used to be that "thing" about bodies coming off molds made 1969 or earlier. ;)

It appears that wording was removed from the rules.

#19 Prof. Fate

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 11:17 AM

Hi

Keith, various chapters formed in '68 and argued out the rules and voted in "NCC" in the winter of 1968. There was a meeting at the Cottonwood Mall in Salt Lake at "Hammond's Raceway". Several of us were racing in both So Cal and Utah and Colorado, and the tracks in the west had already adopted the rules that winter. The "national" part was more for official purposes, as most of the tracks I knew were using them in '68.

Air control.

There were actual sheets being passed round on the aero stuff. The rules published in Car Model, I think, outlined how big and where. The problem was that by the time the mags had it, most of us were doing something else. Tracks fell into two catagories. Some tracks ONLY allowed exactly the little tabs and such illustrated in the mag, and some were more liberal.

As the airdams grew, some tracks banned them under the precept that when the car RAN, it broke the rules even if it passed tech on the block. The thinking was that the aircontrol pushed the body down below the 1/16th clearance,a nd the side dams splaying out got wider than the 3.25" limit!

So, even when we had "national rules" the local interpretations varied.

Rocky

By the way, John looks GOOD...brightens my whole day!

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#20 Steve Deiters

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 11:26 AM

The chassis is too much like an 888 or a clone thereof to be a one-off Pro build.

Solder joints look like the sort of stuff Jan and Lee (and others... ;)) would crank out for distributors using Parma brass parts. More Midwest/East Coast mid-Seventies style than West coast. Need to see it from the top to be sure.

From a thread here:

The 888 and the 1972 Nats...

Posted Image


And as far as other comments regarding how things used to be... those who survive history get to write it as they remember it, right or wrong.

I always like to see the Limpach "888 Wonder" chassis mentioned on the blogs.It was the chassis that brought high quality/high performance to the everyday racer over the counter for an affordable price at a time when other skyrocketing racing expenses, in particular motors, were begining to drive people away. Its stay was relatively short, but it had quite the impact. It proved that a quality simple design could be marketed at an affordable price. Hopefully there is at least one at the slot racing museum on the left coast because it rightfully should be there.

#21 TSR

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 11:55 AM

O/S and TrueScale both do.

Do you see them listed? However I don't see anything on this body that would not qualify it.
No one would object if anyone would run one.

The chassis is too much like an 888 or a clone thereof to be a one-off Pro build.


Whooo.

OK, let see now:

Posted Image

And...

Posted Image

I don't know how I missed that... either this is a real 1971 Limpach "888" or a damned good copy, I thought also of possibly a Gilbert marketed by Associated in 1973... minor differences in the length of the outer main rails and an added motor bracket.
The vary same Gilbert chassis in my hands right now has slightly longer front-axle tubing back rails, and the motor bracket has a top rail descending along it, so these small differences mean that it is almost certainly an "888".
Jan marketed this chassis first in late 1971, so my first assessment is correct, me think. :)

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#22 Ron Hershman

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 11:55 AM

I always like to see the Limpach "888 Wonder" chassis mentioned on the blogs.


Here ya go Steve..... another "highly modified" 888 ( not a production version ) that Jan gave me many years ago. It was one of his personal racers many moons ago.

DSCN0492.JPG

DSCN0493.JPG

#23 TSR

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 12:21 PM

That's an ISO, and the exact type that Jan built in 1972 and used at the Parma Nats that year. I remember these things and they were damned good. Not much to do with the "888" however, lots of con marketing there. calling it that. :laugh2:

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#24 Ron Hershman

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 12:29 PM

That's an ISO, and the exact type that Jan built in 1972 and used at the Parma Nats that year. I remember these things and they were damned good. Not much to do with the "888" however, lots of con marketing there. calling it that. :laugh2:



True.... mine doesn't have "888" engraved on it..... Just "Built by Jan Limpach" in his unique writing style. And a P-13 engraved on the bottom of it from the race he used it in.

#25 endbelldrive

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 12:55 PM

...John Cukras holds his 1969 anglewinder. John recently was given a clean bill of health by his doctor. That's great news. John!

Love the car...love the other bit of news better! :sun_bespectacled:
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