54 replies to this topic

[Keith Tanaka]

Hey guys, I knew before I posted this topic on Slotblog that it would generate some interest. I don't know a thing about when/where wing cars first occurred, but it's an interesting period in slotcar racing as it opened the door to what G7 racing is today (good or bad). Without any facts I did however always believe that the bay area racers with their Choti bodies and lightweight thingie chassis were the early beginnings of wing cars.

John did mention that this car with the side dams didn't impress him as far as improving the handling of this car. Maybe that's why he didn't continue to race this type of body with side dams in those days.

Keith

[Steve Deiters]

I remember those ISO chassis that Jan ran. He never passed them off as 888's (maybe as varients of them) and it was common knowledge that he had race chassis rather than production that he ran and they were not misrepresented in anyway. There were a couple regional races at Parma that he actually ran "production" out of the bag 888's. I put the quotation around it because naturally the chassis was gone over with some details of his own that he added, as anyone else would have, to "set up" the chassis for the task at hand. Jan was one of those guys that was fast no matter what you handed him and he was totally focused when the power came on. To watch him and Rick Davis with controllers in hand race is something I would love to see again.......
If there was a "con" going on with the 888 it was the misconception by consumers that Limpach actually built the 888 Wonder. Jan never went out of his way to deny it, but he always answered truthfully in my presence when he was asked if he actually made them. Maybe the very early ones, but for the most part it was a chassis he developed and he had others build for him. I believe Dan Bloodworth was the primary guy and maybe even Dave Simerka. It didn't matter. The workmanship was of the highest level. It sold by the 100's. When I worked for a slot racing distributor at the time we could sell everyone we could get in. We ordered them 100 at a time. Again it was a high quality racing chassis right out of the bag many, many levels above the Phase III, Cobra, and others that were the standard in the very late 1960's.

[Keith Tanaka]

And...



I don't know how I missed that... either this is a real 1971 Limpach "888" or a damned good copy, I thought also of possibly a Gilbert marketed by Associated in 1973... minor differences in the length of the outer main rails and an added motor bracket.
The vary same Gilbert chassis in my hands right now has slightly longer front-axle tubing back rails, and the motor bracket has a top rail descending along it, so these small differences mean that it is almost certainly an "888".
Jan marketed this chassis first in late 1971, so my first assessment is correct, me think.

Dokk, although I haven't talked with Cukras about the details of this car (other than the body with the side dams), I noticed two things about John's car as compared to Limpach's 888. John's uses the motor bracket which was commonly used in '69 and prior years when the end bell mounting was standard. The can mounted motor did occur in '69 as seen in the last USRA race in '69. The drop arm is different than 888 chassis drop arm (the forming of the guide flag tongue is different tooling.
Again, I'm not familiar at all with this time period of racing since I left the hobby in early '69, but could it be possible that John's car was the forerunner to the Limpach 888 production chassis?

Keith

[TSR]

Again, I'm not familiar at all with this time period of racing since I left the hobby in early '69, but could it be possible that John's car was the forerunner to the Limpach 888 production chassis?

Keith,
I have no idea, but I hardly see Jan copying someone else chassis. However anything is possible. We used motor brackets through 1973, when they began to disappear. In fact the 1973 Associated/Gilbert production chassis that looks very close to this one have a motor bracket.

Also the C-can did not exist in 1969 (either Mura or Champion), only the larger Champion and Mura cans existed, sized like a Mabuchi 16D, and there is no way that one would fit in this chassis, physically they would be too big.
It is correct that can-side drive happened in 1969, but the first "small" can prototypes build by Bob Green, then by Bill Steube appeared first in early 1970, the Mura production can appearing in late 1970, at almost the same time as the Champion C-can.

I have no clue about this particular car, and I cannot tell from these pictures any difference between the drop arms. Limpach used Parma parts, we mostly used Associated parts on the West Coast, and it was hard to tell the difference...
I am however quite sure that this car was built by (question mark here) in 1971, from its design and parts.
Not that it matters, it is a pretty car with an artistically painted body, but the chassis remains a question.
In any case, it is a period piece, and more important, that survived virtually intact, not a common occurrence as these cars were raced hard and had a tough life.

[Ron Hershman]

I don't know how I missed that... either this is a real 1971 Limpach "888" or a damned good copy, I thought also of possibly a Gilbert marketed by Associated in 1973... minor differences in the length of the outer main rails and an added motor bracket.
The vary same Gilbert chassis in my hands right now has slightly longer front-axle tubing back rails, and the motor bracket has a top rail descending along it, so these small differences mean that it is almost certainly an "888".
Jan marketed this chassis first in late 1971, so my first assessment is correct, me think.

Maybe a "Cukras" body from 1970 mounted later on a older chassis by someone else????

We need to know if the motor is a "A" can or a "C" can.

That will settle it. Well maybe not. LOL

[Steve Deiters]

Keith,

I'm not sure one influenced the other. Jan was looking to build a simple design eliminating production cost killers-bat pan hinge pins and tubing and all the alignment issues related to it. That is why he had the plumber only configuration.
It's kind of funny with all kinds of chassis designs that come and go they keep circling back to the basics found in the Russkit "Rattler" chassis which was developed in the early '60's for 1/32 scale which I think these chassis fall into that catagory even though it was an inline. Not sure if there was 1/24 scale or not. I see it happening again with some anglewinders being developed for the Ohio series coming this fall. It all falls under one umbrella and principle-KISS-keep it simple stupid!

SD

[Ron Hershman]

In any case, it is a period piece, and more important, that survived virtually intact, not a common occurrence as these cars were raced hard and had a tough life.

And to think they make fun of my paint jobs and Tony P's magic marker specials on this blog. LOL

[jimht]

Serious racers race the bodies that work, especially beaters that turn out to handle better.
Test, test, test with an ugly whatever that works, put the pretty "race" body on and the car turns into a toad.

That's definitely a Mura "C" can.
Shunts, endbell cooling hole, big heat sinks, early Seventies Open Motor, not late Sixties.
Pretty much the same stuff that was still being used by the West coast gang at the '74 Nats.

If that's an unchanged 3" rear tread it dates the car as one that was built according to NCC rules, kinda, before we went to the USRA 3 1/8".
5/8" x 13/16" or 3/4' x 7/8"?
The wagon wheels were run in Texas & the East coast long after the West coast started using smaller fronts.
Is that a 1/8" rear axle or a Cobra gear shimmed to 3/32"?

[Gus Kelley]

Hey Keith! The side damns did help our cars up north but if I remember correctly few of us used the one piece unit. It was tried but we found that a separate rear spoiler was better. We did however at times run a piece of tape to tie them together after tuning the rear spoiler to the track and current condition of the track. Also the trim tabs on the front were in use for a very short while but were soon out of use. And Yes ! I'm very happy to hear the news about "John". Gus in Sacto

[Mike K]

From what I recall of what John shared about the car on Saturday at BP, the car was raced at Tampa and he had the car in his posession until he sold it to Waka. The body was given to him by the painter, but he did not recall his name (although he had an epiphany later in the morning recalling at least four other guys he raced with at the time!)
A simple call to John should answer most questions about this car.

[Raymond 'Speedy' Gonzalez]

From what I recall of what John shared about the car on Saturday at BP, the car was raced at Tampa and he had the car in his posession until he sold it to Waka. The body was given to him by the painter, but he did not recall his name (although he had an epiphany later in the morning recalling at least four other guys he raced with at the time!)
A simple call to John should answer most questions about this car.

I remember John being at one of the races in Tampa at Stan's Hobby Shop in that time period, if I am not mistaken Bob Cotton from CAMEN was also there for that race.
Speedy

[Ron Hershman]

I remember John being at one of the races in Tampa at Stan's Hobby Shop in that time period, if I am not mistaken Bob Cotton from CAMEN was also there for that race.
Speedy

Was that the race Ray Gardner was at and slept on the track? LOL And Joel broke the 4 second barrier in Group 7 qualifying?

[68Caddy]

Does JC have a private collection of his own cars from the past, if so it would be interesting to see them i this century.


Nesta

[Raymond 'Speedy' Gonzalez]

Was that the race Ray Gardner was at and slept on the track? LOL And Joel broke the 4 second barrier in Group 7 qualifying?

I was there for that race also; this was after that race but in that same time period. After 40 years it's hard to remember the dates.
Speedy

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Keith,

I'm not sure one influenced the other. Jan was looking to build a simple design eliminating production cost killers-bat pan hinge pins and tubing and all the alignment issues related to it. That is why he had the plumber only configuration.
It's kind of funny with all kinds of chassis designs that come and go they keep circling back to the basics found in the Russkit "Rattler" chassis which was developed in the early '60's for 1/32 scale which I think these chassis fall into that catagory even though it was an inline. Not sure if there was 1/24 scale or not. I see it happening again with some anglewinders being developed for the Ohio series coming this fall. It all falls under one umbrella and principle-KISS-keep it simple stupid!

SD

Here is a Ruskitt Rattler of old......

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Initially, the C can was marketed, at least here in the mountain west as "The Green Can". I have told the story before of being impressed with Bobs workmanship. Mura tags were later.

The 888 style:Pretty much every place I knew had several local builders who did this style of 1 hinge chassis out of parma parts. Usually for 12 to 15 bucks. When the 888 came out, it caused a lot of local fuss because of the PRICE.

When I met Jim HT in 81 when I moved to south texas, he was building chassis much like this as well. Back then, the only off the shelf "racers" were womps or whisperjets. Jim got my attention because while I had seen a lot of "shop chassis" classes in the previous 10 years around the country, his speed of building and workmanship were in a class by itself.

Then The Flexi ended THAT market.

In 83 and 4, John Ford at SARN wanted me to do a review of the off the shelf gp 15s on the market. And I got a lot of samples from the companies of the era, much like THIS car above. Ironically, the local track based their business model on building cars like Jim HT did. But the quality wasn't there. And, the short version of the story was that all the samples I got were better and quicker than the locals, as well as the stuff I was building for ME.

The local owners promptly made a new rule that I could not even RUN a car that I had not bought from them!

Philippe, see all the fun you missed out on when you quit racing?

Fate

[Michael Rigsby]

I remember John being at one of the races in Tampa at Stan's Hobby Shop in that time period, if I am not mistaken Bob Cotton from CAMEN was also there for that race.
Speedy

That's the track I remember seeing this particular car at. Summer race at Stan's Hobby Shop. Bob Cotton from Camen was there. I drove over from Vero Beach just to see John race. Caught hell from my boss at Pantry Pride because I skipped work to go see him race.

Michael Rigsby

[Keith Tanaka]

(The following photos were taken during the 2010 Checkpoint Cup at BPR)
Here's another Cukras car from '69. This one also now belongs to John Wakamatsu (John's long time HO racing friend).
Cukras drove this car in the Tri-State race in '69. John later added this Dave Bloom body (which was never used back then).
This chassis is very similar to those raced in early/mid '69 before the steel plate chassis arrived (at the '69 Western States and the final USRA race of '69).

I noticed in the old race reports (Model Car Science, MRJ) that John raced the Mura B Can (along with Terry Schmid and Dave Grant) in the Western States in '69. For some of the other races in '69 (early to mid '69), John appeared to have been using a Mura green can.

John Cukras and John Wakamatsu. John is holding the car which he raced in the Tri-States race in '69.



Dave Bloom body (never raced)



This Cukras car is similar to those raced in the early to mid '69 time period.
It looks very similar to the one originally posted for this topic.





This green cutdown can (by Lenz?) motor has been highly modified.



Keith

[68Caddy]

Keith I sure like those front wheels, where interesting to me because they are so flat and not tapered? Also that body is perfect like in new condition or JC never got caught up in wrecks?
Thanks for showing us those pic's. John Wakamatsu is a very lucky guy to have those cars.


Nesta

[Keith Tanaka]

Keith I sure like those front wheels, where interesting to me because they are so flat and not tapered? Also that body is perfect like in new condition or JC never got caught up in wrecks?
Thanks for showing us those pic's. John Wakamatsu is a very lucky guy to have those cars.


Nesta

Nesta, that Dave Bloom body is from '69 and was never used by Cukras. Although it's 41 years old, it's in pristine condition.


Keith

[68Caddy]

Thanks Keith, sorry to ask you about those front wheels where they typical for it time?


Nesta

[Keith Tanaka]

Thanks Keith, sorry to ask you about those front wheels where they typical for it time?


Nesta

Nesta, hard front tires were used by everyone in those days. I'm sure John used custom fronts which he made or acquired.

Keith

[ravajack]

Keith I sure like those front wheels, where interesting to me because they are so flat and not tapered?

It appears from the pics that the front wheels have no tires, they're merely turned-to-shape aluminium rims
with just a painted black surface. Was that customary at the time, or even legal?

[tonyp]

There is rubber on the fronts, just not much. Maybe when the rules changed and John may not had the new smaller fronts and just ground some down. The popular front on the east coast and on many of johns cars were RVM. They never made smaller sizes when the rules changed.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Transition times. ARCO rules were 3/4 fronts, some tracks wanted larger, and in this period, some rules allowed 5/8ths. So, it was common to have taken the largest required tire, buy several sets and turn them to size for your needs.

Notice in the front axle carrier how simple the joint is and how easy it would be to move the tube up and down to fit the rules.

Fate