58 replies to this topic

[TSR]

Gary, have run into this quite often, but remember, all these people who profited from the bubble and later lost their shirt, made their own bed.

More info for you Champion fanatics:
From March 1969 to June 1969, the following motors were available from the Chamblee, Georgia, company:

5001 was the stock Mabuchi FT16D with twin shafts and one-hole case, the other side closed. Price; $3.50

5001B was the same motor, but a limited number that were epoxied and balanced. I have never seen one. $5.00

5007 was the same as the 5001 but with a black case, new high-temp black endbell and hardened arm shaft. $3,95

601 was the stock Mabuchi FT26 endbell-side drive with the single hole can. $3.00

601B was the epoxied/balanced version. Never seen one. $5.00

701 was the old stock FT36D with can-side drive. only 98 cents!!!!

The 707 kits with the Arco 33 mags were also liquidated at 1 buck, or $1.49 with ball bearing in the case...

507-RPB was the FT16 endbell-side drive with the nickel plated, rectangular-hole Mabuchi case and plain bearing, using the 507 rewound, balanced armature, Arco 33 mags with shim, Champion comm: $8.95

507 was the old "blue" rewound can-side drive motor that had been available since 1965. $8.95

Now for the American-made motors:

617 was the FT26 ("26D") sized motor with all American components, Arco magnets with shim, one-hole chrome plated thick case, now with shunted brushes. $10.95

Basically, all of the above was pretty much obsolete stuff that Champion was desperate to get rid of. All of the above were balanced by grinding the stack on a belt sander.

Now for the "good" stuff (all "D-size" motors and parts)

535 "Thumbprint" is the same as the former 525, but now with side vents, new black endbell with new smaller bearing (never seen one of these either) $19.95

545 "Bob Cozine Signature" motor built to Cozine specification (apparently, no...) wound with 25 wire. "This motor will constantly evolve with progress of technology" (maybe but I believe that only one type was ever issued This was basically a 535 with more care applied to its assembly and with selected armatures). $24.95

The rest of the stuff were motor kits and parts, many from remaining old stock, except for the following:

5504 25-wire armature with drill-blank shaft, 0.013" lamination, diamond-trued comm, drill balanced. $7.95

5506 Latest "Big Chief" armature, 26-wire, hardened shaft, annealed lamination, diamond-trued comm. $6.98

5507 and 5508 are the same but with 27 and 28 wire.

Having fun yet?

[Ron Hershman]

The ONLY reason why Champion asked Mabuchi to blank one side of their FT16D and FT26 motors for them was to "improve the magnetic field". It's written in black and white in the period publications.

Poor design to have only one side closed and the other open..... screws up the magnetic field more than improves it.

[TSR]

Agreed, but at the time it was the hot thinking!

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Ron, I remember we had more bad ideas than good ones back then! It is common to run into racers from the day who declare that they "invented" this or another great idea. But the facts are that virtually everything was invented multiple times AND, most of the time, these ideas didn't work!

But as I said above, sometimes you would be making significant changes on the same day from race to race when there were lots of tracks.

Fate

[Gator Bob]

. More info for you Champion fanatics:
From March 1969 to June 1969, the following motors were available from the Chamblee, Georgia, company:

5001B was the same motor, but a limited number that were epoxied and balanced. I have never seen one. $5.00

Having fun yet?

Hi,

Hope you enjoy them.

A trip to the vault and I took these out for some pictures:





Another piece of history, I think this is a rare item from 1970?

[Gator Bob]

The 5001B was no match for the 507 but would last a bunch of races. They were great little motors on home tracks.

This car was a pleasure to drive on plastic with silicones. IIRC it was a 5001B.

[TSR]

The Group 12 arm is common stuff but the 5001B motor and arm are definitely in the scarce column in Champion collecting.
The LASCM has a HUGE collection of Champion parts (possibly the world's largest at this time), but still does not have those. We are still hunting!

To correct the opening post, the ultimate (and one of the rarest) Champion motors is the 535, that uses the same great endbell as that of the Bob Cozine Signature motor, but has a more evolved armature. After that, it kind of goes downhill until the C-can motor.

The 535 only appeared one year and is very difficult to find today in any condition.

[Gator Bob]

Dokk,

That is interesting as I didn't think that the 26Ds were that prevalent in Group racing even though the Champion 1970 stamped NCC GR-22 chassis came with both motor mounts.

Also interesting is the price of the 5001B (Mabuchi?) arm being more costly then the much higher quality GP-12-A.

BTW: Was a complete GR-12 Champion motor built in a 617 set-up?

[TSR]

Bob,

Thing is, when the FT26 became obsolete for open class racing (actually they never were the choice of the pros), Champion was stuck with huge inventories of motors, arms, magnets... and recycled them into NCC-legal "Group-12" parts. There were few takers, so you still have lots of cans, endbells, magnets and arms around. Champion marketed their FT26 motors for Group-12 under various names, the best known being "Charlie Brown".

[HarV Wallbanger III]

This is why when George Mura owned Mura there was only two-hole and four-hole cans that didn't allow finger tips to get inside a running motor or a not running motor that could still be warm enough to burn a finger.

This is why when I helped Woody (who owned Mura before he died) design the last motor (endbell, hardware and can) the can was designed with a crossbar, even though a child could still get a finger in it but it had to have that crossbar....

If it had been my choice there were many changes I would have made to that new motor but all I could do is recommended to Woody what I thought he should do but he overrode me on several design ideas... I wanted it lighter, no crossbar, lighter hardware, 5mm bushings, and other things but... It was his $$ he was spending and he got what he wanted.

[Horsepower]

I heard a long time ago that someone was writing a book about this stuff and it would have all these beautiful pictures. It was so long ago I can't remember who it was, but it must have just been a rumor.

Too bad, as I would pay a lot of money for something like that.

[TSR]

I am almost finished...

[Horsepower]

I love you, man! I was just joshing with you, by the way.

But the part about paying good money is the truth.

[TSR]

It's going to be a fairly thick book, the text alone takes over 250 pages in 8.5 X 11 format, and this is before ANY pictures...

[Gator Bob]

Dokk, I don't know if it is in the T&Cs of being a member but feel free to use those images of the 5001B... for now.
If you need the full size images I can send them to you via PM or email... just ask.

With that said... back to the Gr12 26Ds. No surprise that these were not favored, with the higher CG, greater arm mass, and all like that.

Two questions:

What's a "Charley Brown"?

Was a complete GR-12 Champion motor built in a 617/DZ set-up?

I have never seen one... If this arm is not scarce I was thinking of building it up to a complete motor.

[Horsepower]

What's a "Charley Brown"?
I have never seen one... If this arm is not scarce I was thinking of building it up to a complete motor.

I never heard of that either, and I thought I read it ALL! I think we may have to wait for the book for the answer to that.

[TSR]

The Champion "Charley Brown"-series motors were recycled leftover obsolete 617 motor parta (can, endbell, and magnets) with new armatures so as to be legal for the new NCC Group 12 and Group 16.

We have several of these motors new in box at the LASCM. The FT16D sized armatures are of course, unbalanced as required by the NCC regulations.

[Gator Bob]

Thanks, Dokk. If you get a chance next time please post some pics of the "Charley Brown".

[TSR]

That's the idea but I do not have any on file. We have both motors and arms.

[don.siegel]

For what it's worth, I was showing my Champion stuff to a friend the other day, including the Lotus 40 with the Champion Jail Door frame and 5001 motor. Well, when I actually looked inside the motor it turned out to be a 5001B model! Balanced Champion style and pretty sure it's epoxied, but stock winding, judging from on-track performance.

Did other Champion kit/RTR cars like this come with the B?

Don

[TSR]

Don,

While not in the catalogs, Champion had a knack of getting rid of anything and everything over time, dumping obsolete equipment onto the RTRs they sold to the raceways.

So, yes, it is entirely possible...

[Gator Bob]

For what it's worth, I was showing my Champion stuff to a friend the other day, including the Lotus 40 with the Champion Jail Door frame and 5001 motor. Well, when I actually looked inside the motor it turned out to be a 5001B model! Balanced Champion style and pretty sure it's epoxied, but stock winding, judging from on-track performance.

Did other Champion kit/RTR cars like this come with the B?

Don

Don, Might be misinterpreting what your saying but I don't think a jail door would have ever come with a 5001B

[Horsepower]

Check it out................
Ebay auction number 270898276005.

[Gator Bob]

Thanks Gary !!!
Too cool....That is the exact same car set-up (Gr-15 blue endbell in a Gr20 chassis) that I ran with a brown/gold 1970 Camaro body (then Ferrari coupe) up till 1973. I think it came with orange tires on it???

[TSR]

Champion used the "Buster Brown" moniker through 1973. On the car being offered, the body is not from the original kit but a Dynamic "Aero-Dynamic" job, one of four devised in 1972 for Hiram Johnson's company by pro racer Bob Bernhard after the commercial success encountered by the M.A.C. bodies of late 1971.
The chassis itself is a standard "Bend-O-matic" Group-20, the very one that caused the early demise of the NCC generated formula. It was simply a wrong choice. The motor is what used to be a good unit, now with a G20 armature but inflicted with one of the worst endbell designs the industry has ever suffered.