129 replies to this topic

[jimht]

Seems as if a serious effort is being made by all the rules makers in D3 (on both coasts) to address motor inequities.
Good, but...

When Floyd first got the Plafits I asked him when there would be a Gp12 version.
He said they were working on it.
I didn't want a Gp12 version for Gp12 cars; I wanted it to replace the Cheetahs.

Restricted motor racing can only be fair when ALL the participants have more horsepower than they really need.
That said, I guess there's little likelihood of a faster sealed motor...WHY?

A Gp12 wind would certainly be more than enough for this no air control racing program.
After all this time, we've got good commutators, there's little extra expense in quality magnet material, & it doesn't cost any more to do fewer turns of bigger wire.
How much more does good epoxy & balancing cost?

Even if all that doubled the price it would still be a bargain.

[John E]

Group 20 motors for everyone and for every class!

Overpower the hell out of em, make em run like a real Can-Am car did.

That and a breakout time, solves just about every problem.

[TSR]

I have a better idea: why not open-class motors free for everyone? 8)

[John E]

Why not try this.

Any C-can motor you want, any armature, any wind, any magnets, etc.

Divide the classes by body style and set a breakout time that's commensurate with each type of car, not with the type of motor. If you think you can drive a Group 12 motor and not break out, have at it. If on the other hand you want to run a cheaper FK type motor and not fall off for the entire race, have at that. The better driver, not the guy who can buy the better, faster motor will win.

Have concours mean something by adding laps to the concours winning driver's total. Just enough to make it tempting to paint a really nice body and not drive it like an idiot.

Simple, no clandestine R&D needed by anyone.

No motor limits, no cheating.

Course it's so simple that someone will find a way to ruin it, as someone always does.

[Ron Hershman]

Restricted motor racing can only be fair when ALL the participants have more horsepower than they really need.
That said, I guess there's little likelihood of a faster sealed motor...WHY?

A Gp12 wind would certainly be more than enough for this no air control racing program.
After all this time, we've got good commutators, there's little extra expense in quality magnet material, & it doesn't cost any more to do fewer turns of bigger wire.
How much more does good epoxy & balancing cost?

Even if all that doubled the price it would still be a bargain.

It can only be fair when all manufacturers are PRODUCING equipment made to the SAME TECHNICAL specs.

Hey, Pro Slot has your decent Group 12 motor now for $30 un-sealed or $3 for sealed . . . Pro Slot motors.

Or you can check out their sealed Group 20 motors for $49 or less.

All the quality one would want . . . what a bargain!!!!

[TSR]

Why not try this: create your own racing division and leave D3 to its rightful owners, racers, and enthusiasts who appear, save from a few, to really enjoy it the way it is?

[Ron Hershman]

The way it is now . . . the $9 motors are open. 8)

[Slotgeezer]

Why not try this: create your own racing division and leave D3 to its rightful owners, racers, and enthusiasts who appear, save from a few, to really enjoy it the way it is?

Nope . . . :snooty:

Can't do it . . . :snooty:

WON'T do it! . . . :naughty:

More fun to stir the pot . . . :naughty:

I'm just trying to help . . . :liar:

[Pappy]

Have concours mean something by adding laps to the concours winning driver's total. Just enough to make it tempting to paint a really nice body and not drive it like an idiot.

I like this idea, have a ten point grading system. One point for numbers, one for drivers name, one for Sharpie detail, one for grill and air intake detail, etc., etc.

If your car only scores a 7 against someone else's 9, then you have already spotted them two laps.

[jrrc]

Back to the original reason for this thread. When you are done "testing" these motors in races I will consider coming down to race and not before. I won't spend money for airfare/hotel/rental car to have to run against someone with a prototype motor that is faster and more reliable than I can get.

"Our aim is to provide D3 a motor that will be not only faster than before but at least as reliable and providing much closer on-track performance."

I applaud what you are trying to accomplish, and in no way do I feel anyone was trying to cheat. But . . . I think you are going about testing these motors all wrong.
I think trying to justify their legality is just absurd. IMHO (and correct me if I'm wrong) the spirit of the rules is a level playing field. Thus these motors (designed to be faster than the motors the rest of us buy) are clearly illegal. Ask youself this question: if another racer had gone to a motor manufaturer and had prototype motors made (in order to have better motors for himself, not having better motors for the future) would it be legal? I hope not, but your logic says yes.

I really do appreciate and respect Mike Steube's comments on the situation.

[idare2bdul]

If your car only scores a 7 against someone else's 9, then you have already spotted them two laps.

If it was two laps a heat, it wouldn't have helped much Saturday.

It was a bit like letting the fox watch the hen house. Time to move on from this and come up with somthing that works. Having people with financial ties or industry connections run, or influence, the running of D3 has created a climate of suspicion that benefits no one. I think PdL wants the best for this class. I just think this last episode was not the way to achieve it. It's over, let's learn from it.

[Cheater]

As a not-yet D-3 racer from the other side of the country, I hope I can be forgiven for adding a few thoughts.

Underpinning virtually all of the unhappiness in this brouhaha is a problem that slot racing constantly suffers: winning is far too important to many of the participants (especially considering that there are no prizes or points in D3!). Wish I had a buck for every example of this I have seen in the years I have been a competitive slot racer.

To the CA-D3 management, I'd like to suggest that it is imperative to not forget that, just like in the stock market, perceptions are substantially more important than cold facts.

Taking full advantge of hindsight, and considering the circumstances that resulted in these motors being utilized at the last minute, I believe it would have been wise for the four entrants using these motors either to have announced partway through the race that they were running experimental motors and thus would not be listed in the results or to have pulled their cars from the race before its completion.

All that being said, I agree with the ever-present voice of reason, Mr. Boemker, that it is time to put this unfortunate situation out of mind and to move forward.

[TSR]

The way it is now . . . the $9 motors are open.

Does this mean that you have some that are opened on your bench right now? :?

Ask youself this question: if another racer had gone to a motor manufaturer and had prototype motors made (in order to have better motors for himself, not having better motors for the future) would it be legal?

Jim, according to the rules, yes it would be legal, because they would be factory-sealed production motors and if marked identically to "regular" motors, impossible to detect other than by their performance, that is, IF they were performing better than the best of available motors. It is of course a flaw that we need to correct on the written rules, buy adding the wording: "such motors must be available over the counter of the hosting raceway" or something like it. In fact, other racers have used unavailable motors to others at the counter of the hosting raceway, and we let it go as the rules have no provision for such. This I am sure, will be sorted out in a future meeting of the D3 management team. Funny that even as some of these motors were actually clearly faster than any other out there, no one protested because they were not in the cars of the "Usual Suspects".

Thus these motors (designed to be faster than the motors the rest of us buy) are clearly illegal.

Jim, with all due respect, I believe that you are in error here.
1) These motors were never designed to be "faster" than the current breed. In fact, they were at best, just as fast but not faster than others in the race. As noted by others, there were faster motors there, but not in good cars or not as well driven. If these motors, untested until actual qualifying, had been mediocre in their performance, how much of this thread would there be? Indeed it might have been a mistake to use this race as a test session, and indeed we should have kept our regular motors so as to finish the usual 1-2-3-4 as shown in the last few races?
2) What these samples (identical in tech spec to the previous generation) did was to show more consistency between themselves, with virtually equal performance and so far good endurance. This was simply accomplished through an improvement in building techniques and quality control. My previous race motor was just as fast in the same car during practice, possibly faster as I turned an identical lap in practice on the RED lane with the motor used in the last race there.
3) The gain in qualifying lap time for the top two racers (a very minor amount) can be attributed simply to track conditions, better set-up on proven combination of chassis and aero from the very same guys that have so far, dominated the D3 racing in its various classes, rather than by utter motor performance. I believe that the next two racers did not improve on their previous qualifying personal best.
4) We plan to continue to test these samples in actual races (albeit used by other racers) until we have proof of their worth for becoming a spec motor for So-Cal D3 as well as any other D3 organisation nationwide and internationally that wishes to do so. The samples will be entrusted to selected racers for the next D3 Can-Am race on the Kingleman track. I do not know what the selection process will be; we will decide this between D3 committee members.
We will regret not to have you racing in the meantime.
Regards,

[Ron Hershman]

Does this mean that you have some that are opened on your bench right now? :?

No, what it means precisely is that with the current D-3 rules and/or lack of manufacturing specs . . . one is able to race whatever he/she can have made somewhere and sealed.

Those rules as written and explained here leave way too much room for anyone with a few connections.

Sounds like Open Group 7 without the cans screws to hold the endbell on to me and many others. 8)

[TSR]

Those rules as written and explained here leave way too much room for anyone with a few connections.

I agree, and this is why we want to close that loop by making D3's own proprietary motor, sold over the counter of the host raceways with the simple numbered control that we have used since January 2007 for the F1 races and January 2006 for TSRF races, so that everyone has the same chance at winning races without having to spend a small fortune in "slow" motors.
This is what we are trying to accomplish here. We are also toying with the manufacturing of an "entry-level" Retro Can-Am inline chassis kit that would require no soldering, so as to get skill-less racers an easier way to get involved. If we can accomplish this, one could get over the counter a complete bolt-on kit with everything needed to assemble the car all in one box, except for paint, for a retail price under $60.
Sounds like a plan?

[jimht]

From Ron:

It can only be fair when all manufacturers are PRODUCING equipment made to the SAME TECHNICAL specs.
All the quality one would want . . . what a bargain!!!!

No thanks Ron, the ProSlot motors aren’t sealed anywhere near as well as an FK & every FK motor I’ve seen has better quality control & more consistency for less money.
Sealed fast motors could be inconsistent & still be fast enough, there wouldn’t be any need for manufacturers to do anything but meet the dimensional specs.

My question had to do with why there are no fast sealed motors.
The probable legitimate answer is that it costs money & no one sees a market.
Yet we keep trying to fix the same idiotic problem with more refined versions of the same solutions that haven’t worked before.

The other responders propose similar unsuccessful bandaiding.
They’re not wrong, they just aren’t addressing the real issue:
Breakouts work…sort of, but it’s IROC racing with your own stuff & breakouts stifle creativity.
Faster motors already exist, that’s not the point either.

Why define underhorsepowered classes & then whine about how one motor is faster than another? (“My slow motor is slower than your slow motor, waaaah.”)

This thread is about unequal motors in Limited Motor racing.
It doesn’t matter whether the inequality is perceived or real, it’s a never-ending source of discontent & it started way before D3.

It’s not just about D3.

(And I’ll bet thousands of new motors are not being produced just for a local class at BP, protestations to the contrary.)

BTW, Dokk, you're responding to Ron, ...I know he can be sort of irritating like me, but he's not as preachy.

[Ron Hershman]

Those rules as written and explained here leave way too much room for anyone with a few connections.

I agree, and this is why we want to close that loop by making D3's own proprietary motor, sold over the counter of the host raceways with the simple numbered control that we have used since January 2007 for the F1 races and January 2006 for TSRF races, so that everyone has the same chance at winning races without having to spend a small fortune in "slow" motors.
This is what we are trying to accomplish here. We are also toying with the manufacturing of an "entry-level" Retro Can-Am inline chassis kit that would require no soldering, so as to get skill-less racers an easier way to get involved. If we can accomplish this, one could get over the counter a complete bolt-on kit with everything needed to assemble the car all in one box, except for paint, for a retail price under $60.
Sounds like a plan?

Hmmmmmmm . . . who is that has been telling us that "there is no problem with the motor formula" when the subject of the Pro Slot motor being allowed in the Retro Can-Am class came up?

Entry level Retro Can-Am kit . . . sounds like a great idea . . . it could be just as simple as using a $45 Parma 4" FCR ready-to-run,not a kit, but that could be used with a simple clear body change. The best part is the FCR chassis is inline and stamped from brass, requires no soldering, has big fronts on it, and could be cut up to make a better handling chassis. It's right up your D-3 guys alley.

[TSR]

We do not want the Retro Can-Am D3 entry-level chassis to look like a modern Flexi.

As far as the D3 motor formula goes, there is nothing wrong with it, but there is something needed to tune up the disparity between fastest and slowest motors, as well as to control illegal blueprinting, and this is where I have put my efforts.

[TSR]

BTW, Dokk, you're responding to Ron, ...I know he can be sort of irritating like me, but he's not as preachy.

I don't read you as irritating because green soothes my eye.

[jimht]

Dokk said:

We do not want the RETRO Can-Am D3 entry-level chassis to look like a modern Flexi.

But they already do! besides, stamped chassis are just as RETRO as scratchbuilt.

Ron said:

The best part is the FCR chassis is inline and stamped from brass, requires no soldering, has big fronts on it, and could be cut up to make a better handling chassis. It's right up your D-3 guys alley.

And if there's a chassis better suited to chopping up..............(into a D3), I haven't seen it...just replace the 16D with a real sealed motor.

[Cheater]

Crap, don't tell him that, Dokk!

I know one member who can't even read JimHT's posts because he's blue-green colorblind . . .

[TSR]

The best part is the FCR chassis is inline and stamped from brass, requires no soldering, has big fronts on it, and could be cut up to make a better handling chassis. It's right up your D-3 guys alley.

Thank you for your suggestion. However the D3 Retro Can-Am "entry-level" chassis will be made of brass and not steel and will look substantially more like a vintage 1967 pro-racing chassis.

[idare2bdul]

We do not want the Retro Can-Am D3 entry-level chassis to look like a modern Flexi.

Thus sayeth the real power behind the throne of D3.

Don't forget the real purpose of this class is to find a venue where PdL will have an advantage, or does it just seem that way to us peasants. :roll:

Most of us will never own a real Cobra but a lot of company's are selling pretty convincing replicas. I bet a lot of racers like a car that looks scale. The details are less important.

Am I the only one that thinks something's wrong If we have to protect our scratchbuilders from a cheap over-the-counter chassis? :roll:
As far as I remember there was no rule on materials back in the day. My first scrachbuilt chassis was mostly aluminum.

I thought USRA was dumb for letting racers vote. Now it starts looking like wisdom.

Schedule a race on Bastile Day. You bring the peasants, I'll bring the torches. 8)

[TSR]

Don't forget the real purpose of this class is to find a venue where PdL will have an advantage, or does it just seem that way to us peasants.

It took you that long to figure this out?

Am I the only one that thinks something's wrong If we have to protect our scratchbuilders from a cheap over the counter chassis?

Mike,
Do you see no need at all for an entry-level chassis in D3 Retro Can-Am for the people with no building skills?