69 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

I still see a pretty healthy interest in the Mabuchi-era stuff, as evidenced by both the popularity of the current Thingie Proxy series... as well as just generally from what I see here. I don't see much going on with the Mura stuff that came after, along with the anglewinders. There even seems to be a fair amount of interest still in the padlock and open frame type motors!?

Since the Mura motors were a huge step forward (in all their various forms) from the Mabuchis, why is it that you don't see much here about those cars and motors? Is it that they were more complex?... "too fast" for "fun running"? Seems to me that there's more parts available to keep them running and they're certainly significant historically. The Mabuchis are super-cool in their own way and a boatload of fun... but why no Muras?

-john

[tonyp]

John probably because by the time the Mura motors and anglewinders came out slot car racing was already well into the decline and had moved from a hobby where people would go to their local raceway to "run" slot cars to one where you would only go to race slot cars. Besides there were probably more Mabuchi motors sold in a month back in the beginning then Mura sold in a year.

When motors like the Muras came out, the art of home rewinding, which I believe was a big part of the hobby in the early days, was kind of eliminated. You could buy a motor better in most cases then you could make yourself. So I believe a lot of the old geezers here also wound their own stuff, liked working on motors, and that is why there is so much love for the Mabuchis.

[havlicek]

Great points, Tony. I hadn't thought about the difference between the people who enjoyed running slot cars (pretty much me) and those who came to race them. I do remember the huge advances in performance and reliability with OTC motors and what that meant for the "motor twiddlers".

I also remember being more than a little intimidated by the complexity of anglewinder chassis and the prospect of trying to even match those for sale by scratchbuilding. You guys sure made it tough on us!

-john

[tonyp]

I remember going to the track on Saturday morning buying a Russkit 23, a spool of Simco wire, and sitting there winding it, trying it, blowing it up, rewinding until we got one to stay together for the Saturday night race. No epoxy, balancing, or comm tying, just fun in those innocent days. LOL...

I know I stopped winding my own stuff when I could buy an off the wall motor that was faster and more reliable. Also when I found out I could build chassis better than I could rewind. It was easier to out-handle people then out-horsepower them.

[havlicek]

Those were the days eh? That right there is a great example to me of why the Mabuchi stuff still has a hold on people. The "23" is still one motor I can remember as being probably more "torn apart" than most for some reason, even though they were all pretty much the same.

-john

[tonyp]

Fun days for sure.

[Hworth08]

Interesting topic!

Actually Champion of Chamblee was usually the first in improvements, then Mura often followed (in a couple months) with a bit better product.

Maybe the killer of the Mura/Champion over-the-counter motor was the cost. The good 517s and Magnum motor were $15 plus motors. They were NOT reliable. The endbells no longer melted, now the wire burned up. In an eigth car race it was common for two cars to lose their motors.

Tony stated he didn't tie his rewinds. Well, we did! If it was supposed to be 80 turns, the last pole only got 79 and what would have been 80 was wrapped around the comm wires a couple times to hold the wires on! I usually didn't epoxy my arms either, if the arm "went bad" you couldn't rewind it again. Mura later proved us right by selling thousands of good arms neither glue or balanced.

Boy, a fellow could write a couple chapters on the Mabuchi days!

[Mopar Rob]

I still see a pretty healthy interest in the Mabuchi-era stuff, as evidenced by both the popularity of the current Thingie Proxy series...

I think that's just your perception since you like messing around with these motors.

Based on 50-60% of the entrants being almost stock type Dynamic builds and the posts of disapproval for builds like mine and yours; I would think that was a major reason of this years popularity? Anyone can screw the Dynamic chassis pieces together and build a car.

Personally, I would have preferred using stock Deathstars for the proxy. I don't believe the vintage Mabuchi motors are really conducive to lasting the whole proxy. I've talked with a couple of people who entered cars in the past proxy races, but didn't for this very reason. My own car has burnt up three arms in only two races. During setup/practice I burnt up a vintage silver wire arm that was tied, epoxied, and balanced. I then went to a stock blue wire 26D arm and toasted that. I made it through the first race with a vintage rewind that was epoxied, tied, and balanced, but it burnt up during the two minute practice before the race at BP.

Now my entry has one of your arms in it. I hope the average amount of time I'm getting out of the motor increases? I sit and contemplate what I do for when it smokes again which I truly believe it will before the next eight rounds are over. Do I send my last Mini Brute arm to you to have it rewound since you said they make good rewind donors or just throw up my hands and call it quits the next time and have my car sent back? I really don't know what I want to do.

[JohnnySlotcar]

Rob, don't give up the ship! If it blows, I have a Pittman 6001 you can bolt into your car.

John

[havlicek]

Interesting topic!

Actually Champion of Chamblee was usually the first in improvements, then Mura often followed (in a couple months) with a bit better product.

Maybe the killer of the Mura/Champion over-the-counter motor was the cost. The good 517s and Magnum motor were $15 plus motors. They were NOT reliable. The endbells no longer melted, now the wire burned up. In an eigth car race it was common for two cars to lose their motor.

Tony stated he didn't tie his rewinds. Well, we did! If it was supposed to be 80 turns, the last pole only got 79 and what would have been 80 was wrapped around the comm wires a couple times to hold the wires on! I usually didn't epoxy my arms either, if the arm "went bad" you couldn't rewind it again. Mura later proved us right by selling thousands of good arms neither glue or balanced.

Boy, a fellow could write a couple chapters on the Mabuchi days!

For sure Don!... And I completely agree about the Champion stuff (and I love the Champion stuff as well!), although Mura did eventually win the war. Really though, my post was more about anything post-Mabuchi, including the Champions. I think Tony hit on some really important stuff in his first reply that I hadn't considered that still impact the interest in the vintage motors and I have to admit that I have a huge soft spot for motors like the "23"... as well as a little for the 26D and 36D can-type motors.

Part of what got me thinking about this is that my Mabuchi parts keep getting depleted, but I have a fair amount of vintage Mura stuff that doesn't seem to get used up much. I have a feeling that another smaller factor is that the anglewinder chassis are a lot tougher to replicate for most people, or at least they are seen as such. You gotta admit that some of the classic AW builds that Rick has done involve some pretty heavy skill and engineering to pull off, even at a lower level of finish. (Props to Rick!)

"I still see a pretty healthy interest in the Mabuchi-era stuff, as evidenced by both the popularity of the current Thingie Proxy series..."

II think that's just your perception since you like messing around with these motors.

Based on 50-60% of the entrants being almost stock type Dynamic builds and the posts of disapproval for builds like mine and yours; I would think that was a major reason of this years popularity? Anyone can screw the Dynamic chassis pieces together and build a car.

Personally, I would have preferred using stock Deathstars for the proxy. I don't believe the vintage Mabuchi motors are really conducive to lasting the whole proxy. I've talked with a couple of people who entered cars in the past proxy races, but didn't for this very reason. My own car has burnt up three arms in only two races. During setup/practice I burnt up a vintage silver wire arm that was tied, epoxied, and balanced. I then went to a stock blue wire 26D arm and toasted that. I made it through the first race with a vintage rewind that was epoxied, tied, and balanced, but it burnt up during the two minute practice before the race at BP.

Now my entry has one of your arms in it. I hope the average amount of time I'm getting out of the motor increases? I sit and contemplate what I do for when it smokes again which I truly believe it will before the next eight rounds are over. Do I send my last Mini Brute arm to you to have it rewound since you said they make good rewind donors or just throw up my hands and call it quits the next time and have my car sent back? I really don't know what I want to do.

Nope... I think you misunderstood what I was getting at, Rob. The Proxy is only a single example of a larger interest I see. I see VERY little interest in vintage Mura (the classic "Green Can" motors, the "B motor", and other variants) over the course of the year compared to the Mabuchis and earlier Champions. Whether or not the Mabuchis should have been replaced by Deathstars for the Proxy is really a whole different subject I'd rather not get into here.

When the Mabuchi era stuff became obsolete, a lot of what interested some people went bye-bye (as Tony mentioned)... along with the quaint charm of trying to work on motors that were doomed before you even stuck them in a car. Slot racing became more and more "serious" as the fad was simultaneously dying.

Now my entry has one of your arms in it.

How'd that happen?... Did I send it to you and forget? Anyway, I hope it's one I did in the last year or so and that it was an appropriate wind for the setup and the race series. Otherwise... poof!

-john

[HarV Wallbanger III]

it smokes again which I truly believe it will before the next eight rounds are over.

Rob,

I hope it will last as it's my H-Power arm you're using. I'm more worried about motor brushes wearing out than blowing up... but we shall see.

Good luck to all Proxy dudes!

[havlicek]

Rob I hope it will last as it's my H-Power arm your using.

... Well that explains that! Geez, Barn, you are one generous dude and I don't think everyone understand how much time and effort you put into the Proxy! (A little sideways drift...)

-john

[Mopar Rob]

Back to the Mura motors.

I didn't start racing until the early '90s, but when I started all that was really available for Flexi classes was the Mura motor. Not until 1993 or 1994 did RJR come out with their C-can motor that started the trend that eventually lead to what we see today

Since the motor had such a long lifespan it probably just becomes commonplace? While a Maverick Grabber is probably a better rounded car, most people would rather have a pre-'70s Mustang?

[Jairus]

The Parma Deathstar won't fit a Dynamic chassis.

And last season we allowed Deathstar motors. Where were you, Rob?

Dave Larsen dropped out of last season's proxy because he believed strongly that a vintage race should use vintage power. Yet they were allowed and we only had a handful of entries.

I have always used vintage Mabuchi motors in all but last year's entry and they all finished with a minimum of fuss. Building a Mabuchi motor to last is a matter of careful preparation. If not... there is plenty of help available on this forum. It's not voodoo science.

[Mopar Rob]

And last season we allowed Deathstar motors. Where were you, Rob?

By the time I decided to read any of the posts about it, it was already being raced. Most of the posts were also on another forum that I wasn't a member of. Regardless that series seemed to last almost two years ending sometime last year? When did everyone start building their cars 2008? I've only been a member since early 2008.

[Jairus]

Ah, I see. Well, last season the discussion favored scratchbuilt cars using a popular theme at the time: "Jail Door". The results were only a few cars entered and I suspected it was due to the skills required to jig and build a chassis which not everyone has. So... the bolt-together theme was tried for this year and it seems to have been popular.

At any rate, back to the subject of the A-can sized motors. It's my opinion that the popularity today is because of the large amount of surplus still available. Mura motors... not so much.

Used to be that you could pick up an old beat-up car off eBay just for the Mura A-can motor inside. But seems those days are gone. I rarely find any vintage Mura or Champion stuff on eBay anymore.

I believe the materials found in an A motor to be of much greater value compared to an equal Mabuchi, i.e.: stiffer can, better bearings, higher melting point endbells, etc! But the Mabuchis are still to be found new-in-the-box for reasonable prices.

[endbelldrive]

Used to be that you could pick up an old beat-up car off eBay just for the Mura A-can motor inside. But seems those days are gone. I rarely find any vintage Mura or Champion stuff on eBay anymore.

It's been years since the early Mura two-hole Can in Can A motors could be had for a reasonable price. There were a couple of enthusiasts who really heated up the market for them about the time Slotblog started. The early anglewinder pro running gear (Associated telescopic front wheels anyone?) seemed to be the first scratchbuilt stuff that became desirable to collectors.

I still pick up the dreaded Mura B motors for their arms. The sleeper motor may be the late model Mabuchi with the double ended shaft and the post protectors but those are getting harder to find, too.

[havlicek]

So... I should hold onto all the Mura stuff I have here for investment purposes!?

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Ya, the short version is cost. The good stuff got used up and thus the survivors are few. In my case as someone who kept whole cars, the way I met Philippe and others was that I was hunting for parts and swapping with THEM with whole POS but collectible cars!

In the day, I only rarely used the famed Russkit bracket in the Jail Door days. For that matter, I usually used piano wire instead of the approved rod. Anyway, I preferred the Du-Bro universal bracket which had a carrier for a standard 1/4" bearing or bushing, and holes for both Mabuchi and Hemi mounts... which in modern times meant I can just bolt in a Deathstar!

See, in the Russkit 23 days, I assumed that any monster motor had a race, perhaps two, before a total rebuild. These days, a Deathstar can give me years of play in the same car, though when I RACE the Deathstar I replace every four races anyway as they "lose a step".

As I have mentioned with the rewinding, when I do run a wind, it is usually two steps down from what I would have done then because of the reliability problem.

My exposure to rewinding itself pre-dates my slot car experience, as my dad was an electronics instructor when I was little, and I grew up with tools and stuff. My first Mabuchi was a 36D when the first commercial slot track opened up in North Carolina, and someone blew the motor and tossed it in the trash. Back then, out of the box, it was common for those early Mabuchis to have a basic flaw that left them dead or soon dead. So, the guy tossed it, a FREE motor, that I promptly rewound to a 30s (versus the then stock 36). But because of my dad, it was epoxied and tied before its first race.

As for the proxy, it is a hobby not a job, and whatever you decide is fun is yours! Oddly, I have no opinion on that!

Fate

[havlicek]

Hi Rocky,

I'm not sure what you're getting at in paragraph 1 (the rest seems to be... well... Rocky-isms) When you say "cost"... do you mean the Mabuchi stuff is cheaper? and when you say "the good stuff got used up"... what good stuff? The good Mabuchi stuff or the good Mura stuff???

Like I said earlier, I have a fair amount of both... but the Mabuchis seem to get used faster. My Mura stuff seems to pretty much sit here, except for the occasional project. The later Champion motors and parts seems to be more difficult to get hold of.

-john

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Concern about brushes is why I did 36D brush tubes on my motor because they will last longer but your limited to what springs you can use. I need to get with Mr. H-Power about winding my own for the Mabuchi's ..... gave the best ones I had to Rob's car because he just wanted to use the Mabuchi endbell I had and his wind was a cool running one. (Those were hand-wound H-Power git'tar wire springs.)

[Gator Bob]

Some good replies on the Mabuchi vs Mura thing. Combo of higher price, interest in the hobby going down, maybe some marketing/distribution issues as Champion was more prevalent on the East Coast. I am a Champion guy but overall Muras might have been better.

Tony and Rocky... Great stories and memory recall.

Just had to share so... Here are a couple of NOS slot jewels for your viewing enjoyment. Top of the commercial food chain in their day.

[Jairus]

INDEED!

[Champion 507]

Yummy!!!

[havlicek]

If ever there were such a thing as lust-worthy motors...those would definitely be on the list!

-john