69 replies to this topic

[Jairus]

Where's that darned "Like" button when you want it?

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

While I kept stuff, in my last major move from Pittsburgh to Salt Lake, the box with the strap motors went missing! And, I haven't really seen anything that would let me piece some together. That said, some of the new feather set-ups are really close to what we were running during the early strap era. I can live with close.

But I think it is an issue with some of us that our nostalgia isn't about Cox cars or some other bit, but about the motors and bits themselves. Most of my "collecting" is keeping some oldie raceable.

It's a hobby, not a job!

Fate

[Gator Bob]

Vintage open frame, single magnet motors:
Pittman Bilet DC-63M tested 13,600 RPM/12v
Pittman DC-195A 20,000 RPM/12v; tested 22,751 RPM/12v
45 gcm/12v, 2.3W/12v
Pittman DC-196A 21,000 RPM/12v
45 gcm/12v, 2.4W/12v
Pittman DC-196B 28,000 RPM/12v, tested 26,066-28,031 RPM/12v
Revell Pittman RP-66A tested 21,680 RPM/12v
Revell Pittman RP-77 tested 19,125 RPM/12v
Pittman DC-70 16,500 RPM/12v
85 gcm/12v, 3.5W/12v
Pittman DC-70-6v tested 24,675 RPM/12v
Pittman DC-65A (laminated frame) 17,000 RPM/12v
75 gcm/12v, 3.2W/12v
Pittman DC-65A-6v (laminated frame) tested 32,500 RPM/12v
Pittman DC-85A (laminated frame) 11,500 RPM/12v
259 gcm/12v, 7.4W/12v
Pittman DC-85A-6v (laminated frame) tested 25,354 RPM/12v

Strombecker/Allstate 8,500 RPM/12v
17 gcm/12v, 0.4W/12v
Strombecker Scuttler 12v 22,000 RPM/12v
Strombecker Scuttler 6v tested 35,250 RPM/12v

Tyco 902 12v Inline 24,000 RPM/12v, tested 18,000-23,200 RPM/12v
36 gcm/12v, 2.2W/12v
Tyco 901 6v Inline 30,000 RPM/12v; tested 24,088 RPM/12v with extra field magnets
Tyco 952 12v Sidewinder 18,500 RPM/12v
Tyco 951 6v Sidewinder 25,500 RPM/12v

Vintage can motors:
Russkit 22 (FT-16) 22,500 RPM/12v
62 gcm/12v, 3.5W/12v
Revell SP-500 (FT-16) est. 18,000-20,000 RPM/12v
Revell SP-510X (FT-16) 27,500 RPM/12v
Monogram X-100 (FT-16) est. 20,000 RPM/12v
Cox TTX-150 (FT-16D) 36,000 RPM/12v
Revell SP-80 (FT-16D) 37,500 RPM/12v
Monogram X-110 (FT-16D) 40,000 RPM/12v

Revell SP-600 (FT-36) 20,000 RPM/12v
Russkit 33 (FT-36) 24,000 RPM/12v
Revell SP90 (FT-36D) 28,000 RPM/12v
144 gcm/12v, 10.1W/12v
AMT "purple" (FT-36D) tested 24,587 RPM/12v

Monogram X-88 (FT-13D) 40,000 RPM/12v
Revell SP40 (FT-13D) 30,000 RPM/12v
50 gcm/12v, 3.8W/12v
Kemtron Bullet (FT-13D) 30,000 RPM/12v, tested 35,928 RPM/12v
50 gcm/12v, 3.8W/12v

[havlicek]

Hi Bob... what's the list for/about??? What about the rest of the can motors?

-john

[Gator Bob]

Hi John,

Clicking around and found this info over HERE. Thought it would be interesting data for pre and early Mabuchi lovers.

Enjoy...

[Prof. Fate]

Hi,

Bob, some of those "different" motors are mechanically identical, making the various test values that differ a little suspect!

The "6 volt Scuttler" doesn't exist. The Scuttler-like motor with the hot wind was called "Avenger"; different color and size of wire and also epoxied with "tied" com.

Similarly, the Mabuchis can be divided into generations rather than manufacturer. The early ones with the plain endbell are early on have a different stack than later, then the arm gets better and settles on the Mabuchi standard 140t/34 wind.

Similarly, the FT130 motors are all mechanically the same, including the standard 140t/34 wind.

Fate

[havlicek]

Clicking around and found this info over here (link) . Thought it would be interesting data for pre and early Mabuchi lovers.

Gotcha, Bob.

For the vintage can motors, they should add the Pittcans and then from Mabuchi there were a bunch more not listed, like my favorites from K&B as well as stuff like the Ranalli motors.

There were also the Hemis since they had the best endbell material... if not the best endbell design with those dumb round brushes and flimsy springs.

Then there were the Globe/Versitec motors (both the round ones and the flattened can ones)... built like they were going to the moon.

The Champion story starts really early and their stuff can't be overlooked, and of course the Mura stuff went on to dominate the industry.

I'm sure I'm missing a BUNCH of motors, and the open frame and padlock motor list probably has lots, too.

-john

[don.siegel]

Those results seem pretty close to what I've seen offhand (assuming my tach is accurate!).

I've got a few of the Globe Screamers, and they tach anywhere from about 37,000 to 45,000 rpm or so, for a claimed 40,000 rpm. I have no way to test the torque, however.

Here's a motor spec chart from an early issue of Model Car & Track, one of the few that actually included RPM figures!

Don

[don.siegel]

Like you say John, a lot of motors missing in Bob's list, but the above list should fill in some of them.

In the open frame racket, besides Pittman and Strombecker, there was Ram, Atlas, Aristo-Craft (Polk's), MRRC, K's, Kemtron, KTM, Mini-Auto, MPC, Romford, Regent, Tradeship and Tyco. (and, Tri-Ang/Scalextric Varney, and...)

The unusual cans had K&B, Wilson's, Versitec/Globe, MPC, Riko, Marx, Buhler, Motor Magnet....

The cans were of course pretty much endless.

[havlicek]

Yep Don...I figured if anyone could fill this stuff in it would be you

-john

[Hworth08]

Shortening the list.

Pittman 195 or 196 with a 6 volt DC 65 arm in a light frame with a Gran Prix boy.

In 1964, a Russkit 22 with the green comm wound 80 of 32 still in a light chassis and Gran Prix body.

A 36D ruled the first half of 1965, then the Russkit 23 hit the market with the brush holder endbell. The best wound 60 or 65 of 30, still in a light chaasis.

First half of '66 was still the Russkit 23, second half was a 26D. The 16 motors discovered the Hemi magnets and stack that liked a 28 or 29 wind with a heavier chassis and a sports car body.

Late in '67 the Arcos were available that required hotter winds. Better endbells, heavy frames sometimes as much as 6 ounces. Any aero add-ons you could devise. The cars were heavy, much faster, and about as likely to blow up as finish a race.

In 68 the anglewinders came out. After we learned to add a motor brace the cars got much faster, lost a third of their weight, had a lot of grip and a lot of downforce with the new non-scale bodies.

After that nothing much changed, they just got refined, and refined, and refined. A good chassis from the early 70s can almost compete with todays Flexi cars with equal motors, tires, and bodies.

[tonyp]

That pretty much sums it up...

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Strombecker did both 5 and 7 pole versions of the Scuttler of which only the 7 is above. And the specs in performance are pure fantasy. That is 5s I saw were slower than the Scuttler, and the 7 pole was even worse!

Also missing where the 15r mabuchi variants which were sometimes listed as "little bomb" and "red bomb" The "red bomb, was internally like the modern "FC130S" motors, but of course bigger. But whatever they might do new, the brush material was not as hard as the current S can stuff, which meant that the "hot" versions were only briefly so.

Anyway, then and now, so far as I know, no manufacturer ever tested and verified those performance numbers. While hobbiests like Bob Livingstone ha done some testing in their listings, what the listings do is mostly show how useless they are. That is, testing mabuchis that only differ in paint color of the can, often produce very different numbers.

Fate

[Gator Bob]

Anyway, then and now, so far as I know, no manufacturer ever tested and verified those performance numbers. While hobbiests like Bob Livingstone ha done some testing in their listings, what the listings do is mostly show how useless they are. That is, testing mabuchis that only differ in paint color of the can, often produce very different numbers.

Fate

Champion's were tested......with THIS!

Attached Images

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[Prof. Fate]

Hi

How does this work? I don't see where the prop shaft speed is measured.

Fate

[Gator Bob]

Gotcha, Bob.

For the vintage can motors, they should add the Pittcans and then from Mabuchi there were a bunch more not listed, like my favorites from K&B as well as stuff like the Ranalli motors.

There were also the Hemis since they had the best endbell material... if not the best endbell design with those dumb round brushes and flimsy springs.

Then there were the Globe/Versitec motors (both the round ones and the flattened can ones)... built like they were going to the moon.

The Champion story starts really early and their stuff can't be overlooked, and of course the Mura stuff went on to dominate the industry.

I'm sure I'm missing a BUNCH of motors, and the open frame and padlock motor list probably has lots, too.

-john

Yes... the list is way to short for "slot crazy" guys like us

[Gator Bob]

Hi

How does this work? I don't see where the prop shaft speed is measured.

Fate

Hi Rocky,

Well...I am not exactly sure.

When I purchased this great Champion original in house factory Tach from Bob Rule years and years ago it did not come with directions.

I did not power it up till about 8 months ago when a vintage Champion collector/customer inquired to purchase it. He is waiting for the same answer "how does it work or does it even work?" I did a power up, zeroed the meter and tried the calibration button…that's it! My guess is this 1960s built like a tank (with mil spec connectors) device works just fine. It has been tucked away in a climate controlled environment since it left "The Factory"

The internet is a great tool for research but after looking for months for info on this model tach and pick-up it all turns up empty.

The pick-up is a Power Instruments Inc. "Model #836 Photo Pickup"

Do not know if they used a flywheel setup with an index hole or just placed it over the hole in the can and multiplied the reading by 3 (or # of poles). I have not tried it this piece of slot history other then powering up the one time for this picture. Now that PdL has recently invited me to join slotblog I have a chance to get some of these questions answered.

According to Bob Rule this IS the tach that tested all the Champion motors up until he sold the company. From the first 1 in 10 motors up to the "C" cans of the early 70s.

The International buyer is waiting for me to demonstrate its function before purchase but I'm now thinking this wonderful item might be best off in the LASM right here in what is left of the U.S.A..

[Hworth08]

It might be that the "light devise" on the end of the cable could read either the stack or an out-put devise that might slip on the arm shaft, something along the line of a timing light.

[Gator Bob]

It is an photo op-tickle pick-em-up device with both a light source and receiver.
Just a guess, but I think if anything was put on the motor shaft it was a passive component for reflection or interrupt only.
A reflection or lack of must be the trigger, so if placed over the can hole on a 3 pole arm it would seem that it would be the meter reading x3.

The "user manual" may have been written on a piece of tape that is long gone with only the glue residue left behind.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

I didn't realize there was a strobe probe there. To work, you would need one pole to have a different light/dark value than the others. I have used similar devices for model airplanes.

And I am skeptical that Champion tested every motor they built, but the point remains, in the 60s, the posted RPM ratings listed above were based on the theoretical aspects of the design, not actually tested. Today, at Mabuchi's site, you will see similar values posted, but none of them are actual test results, but a "rating".

One clue to my point is that where the absolutely identical but differing in paint color mabuchis have different ratings.

RPM ratings are the BANE of the current 1/32 plastic car racers who not only treat them as real, but design their rules around them. One fun aspect is that they commonly look at the same motor with different ratings not noticing how the "at voltage" is different.

Fate