16 replies to this topic

[George Kimber]

Hi all those racers that go way back to the start of the 70s.
I have been browsing the raceway rules on Slot blog but have found no concrete rules governing the actual height at the rear OVERALL with the wing attached of Sports Cars
Also there seems to be options for Air devices at the front , one of Two 1/2'' strips of Lexan attached to the Front Fenders or a 1'' strip in front of the windscreen,
Which turned out to be the most effective.

[John Streisguth]

There was a recent thread regarding Arco and NCC rules. Here's a LINK to where they can be found, the 1970 NCC rules should have the info you need.

[TSR]

George,

A typical 1970-71 NCC-legal car had these devices on it:



I do not know of too many top-level racers who used the little widgets on the front fenders, but the use of side fences grew and grew and by 1972, (by that time, the NCC was pretty much history) they were quite large as seen on this car:



By the end of 1973, you had "wing cars" with side fences as high as the Empire State building...

[Steve Deiters]

In the midwest, specifically the original Tri-State Series in Ohio and Indiana, as long as the dams cleared the tunnel you were good to go.

[Ron Hershman]

By the end of 1973, you had "wing cars" with side fences as high as the Empire State building...

LOL and you loved racing them back then didn't you?

[don.siegel]

For what it's worth, on the top shelf is a Group 20 (or 22...) car I was running in Seattle in about early 75, so this must have been the general setup around that time - I was getting back into slots after 6 years away, so just followed what the others were doing...
Don

[George Kimber]

Many Thanks Gentlemen for the input and photo's regarding Wing Heights.
On both Philipe and Dons photo's the rear Wing height looks way over 1/12 inches ,
So no doubt with the side plates so high there was little need to use these Widgets at the font.
At the moment in the UK we are running what we call Super Sports ( Tottenham class) with Mura motors and Brass anglewinder late 60s style chassis .
We have put a maximum Rear Wing height at 38mm (11/2 inches) with the side plates extending an inch in front of the rear axle line and tapered from the back to front.
With the car weight over 120 grms minimum they are pretty heavy and I am not sure we running enough Wing to get the best from the chassis.
But at least the cars look like slot cars !
I am running a Mura Two hole full can with Bob Green wound Mura arm 22t-24g and a gear ration of 7 to 44 and it still needs 10 ft of choke.
They are a real challenge to drive and you have to manage the tires as we have a flat out banking which destroys the rubber .
It's all great fun and at least we have the advantage of going back in time and studying what the Legends of the Era were doing .
We will be racing these beasts at the UK Retro Championships at Raceway 81 on August 21st - 22nd .

For what it's worth, on the top shelf is a Group 20 (or 22...) car I was running in Seattle in about early 75, so this must have been the general setup around that time - I was getting back into slots after 6 years away, so just followed what the others were doing...
Don

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

As a racer then, I must stay that Philippe is WRONG!

See, his example of "typical" is hardly so. The vast majority of racers in the era would not have been any where near that pretty!

Grin.

I saw races in the mid 70s where the dams were 3 inches or higher and you would tangle down the straight with other airdams. One developed a whole new set of driving skills to use the movement of the dams to take out other cars!

Fate

[TSR]

Rocky,
Anyone was free to race sh*tboxes. Some of us had some respect for the people reading the magazines.

Now:

and you loved racing them back then didn't you?

No, I QUIT because of those stupid high fences. he history is clear on this: I was president of the SoCal USRA then, and tried to have a height limit at 1.5" from the tech block for any part of the body and added devices. The speed-crazed morons nearly rioted. I quit on the spot and did not return to a raceway for exactly 20 years.
My own cars in the last year I raced, tell the story of what my own philosophy about added air control was:



So please do not tell me that I encouraged those high fences. I was ALWAYS dead-set against them, and they are in great part responsible for the great divide between slot car enthusiasts today.

George,
Looking at your cars, the 1-1/2" rule is good.

In the midwest, specifically the original Tri-State Series in Ohio and Indiana, as long as the dams cleared the tunnel you were good to go.

Steve,
Not before 1973... photographic evidence shows that nothing like that was run until the Midwest racers saw the excesses of what was taking place in California and Arizona, where these high fences were born.

[George Kimber]

Philippe. It looks like we hit a nerve with the subject of Wing Heights.
It sounds like 1972 was a defining moment in US slot racing.
With this uncontrolled advance to "High Fences" presumably the need for more grip .
What were track conditions like in the late 60s ?
Could you apply glue to the track or were there some controls.
George.

Rocky,
Anyone was free to race sh*tboxes. Some of us had some respect for the people reading the magazines.

Now:

No, I QUIT because of those stupid high fences. he history is clear on this: I was president of the SoCal USRA then, and tried to have a height limit at 1.5" from the tech block for any part of the body and added devices. The speed-crazed morons nearly rioted. I quit on the spot and did not return to a raceway for exactly 20 years.
My own cars in the last year I raced, tell the story of what my own philosophy about added air control was:



So please do not tell me that I encouraged those high fences. I was ALWAYS dead-set against them, and they are in great part responsible for the great divide between slot car enthusiasts today.

George,
Looking at your cars, the 1-1/2" rule is good.


Steve,
Not before 1973... photographic evidence shows that nothing like that was run until the Midwest racers saw the excesses of what was taking place in California and Arizona, where these high fences were born.

[Old pink can guy]

Glue? Have you ever heard of STP? That is one reason P desinged the Diamond P car. You do the research it broke all the track Records.

[Steve Deiters]

Steve,
Not before 1973... photographic evidence shows that nothing like that was run until the Midwest racers saw the excesses of what was taking place in California and Arizona, where these high fences were born.
[/quote]


I didn't really make a statement of orgin for the high wings in the Midwest. I was just stating that is what they evolved to in the Midwest.

Speaking in broad strokes about slot racing chassis design in general at the time there was never anything that I would call a paradigm shifting evolution (unless you want to have "The 888 Wonder" chassis in that catagory and its impact, but I wouldn't call it an innovative design but rather an innovative concept-a competive chassis that the average racer could buy over the counter) that came from the Midwest. Generally speaking the Midwest racers boiled down and filtered and then reinterpreted the stuff the guys were doing on two coasts when it came to chassis design. Then they would meet at the big races such as at Parma and it would be slugged out on the field of battle so to speak.

For really innovative stuff coming from the midwest I think you would have to go all the way back to the 1/32 club tracks and racers mostly in the Detroit area (and maybe to a degree Cleveland. Chicago?...I just don't know)in the early and mid-'60's to see what was for the day innovative, to some degree ground breaking, non-traditional things came from there. It was documented extensively by the writings of Pete Hagenbach and others at the time. Based on subsequent conversations I've had with Rick Davis and the bag of historical goodies he brought for the show'n tell part of the R4 this year I think a strong case could be made to back that up. At the end of the day location really doesn't matter. Slot racers are always innovating no matter where they are.

[Ron Hershman]

From a earlier post.........


Posted 04 April 2007 - 12:50 AM
For the record, Bob Kennedy was the first guy to beat me like a rented mule using "air dams". That would have been at Bob Haine's raceway at what had to be one of the last Arco Races, in probably February of '74. I ran some 20 laps behind him to finish second. Looked and looked at those funny contraptions and in my most scientific mindset, shook my head and mumbled something like 'couldn't be'.

Turns out it 'COULD BE'!!! We had learned our lesson by Nats time that year in Texas
Joel Montague


I have seen Limpach's 1974 Nats winner and it has "Full" side dams like we see today and have for the past 37 years.

[TSR]

Yes Ron, those were born in California and Arizona in early 1973 from the minds of Art Tarver, Neil Kuhns and others, and were soon popularized nationwide by the publication of pictures in late 1973 newspapers and newsletters.
They had already climbed to rear-spoiler height by the time the Western States races were run in mid 1973, and Joel was present.

Philippe. It looks like we hit a nerve with the subject of Wing Heights.
It sounds like 1972 was a defining moment in US slot racing.
With this uncontrolled advance to "High Fences" presumably the need for more grip .
What were track conditions like in the late 60s ?
Could you apply glue to the track or were there some controls.
George.

George,
The whole time I raced, until 3/4 through the 1973 year, the use of glue was entirely free, and there were gobs of it!
The tracks I had seen were old, poorly maintained (save for Nutley that was quite good) and with lots of braid-up issues.
I think that the need for fences could have been from the need to apply more down force to get though the glue, but I doubt that the period racers had figured out what else they could do with the added down force, like removing most of the weight from the cars...

I didn't really make a statement of orgin for the high wings in the Midwest. I was just stating that is what they evolved to in the Midwest.

Steve, I was simply adding precision to your statement as far as when it would have begun.

[tonyp]

I remember the Texas guys showing up at Joel's for the bicentennial warmup with those giant air dams but made of thin material so they folded down on the straights. Up until them we were running the thick ones on the east coast..

[Jesse Gonzales]

For the record the guys that originated the wings that seem to have caused this post to grow were David Fortner, Neil Kuhns, Art Tarver and Bob Bernhard. These guys were cutting edge racers and friends, it was a blast to watch the goings on at Ron Granlee's track way back, the long tails flapped in the breeze and even looked like the harmonics would stop the car. Art was from San Diego like Neil except Neil was attending ASU so we adopted him as an AZ racer, not sure Bob's hometown but I think he was in LA for school or to just look cool in dark shades day or night.

 

Jesse Gonzales

[TSR]

 

For the record the guys that originated the wings that seem to have caused this post to grow were David Fortner, Neil Kuhns, Art Tarver and Bob Bernhard.

Which is pretty much what I said in post # 14.