49 replies to this topic

[wbugenis]

From what I've seen, John, you can make gold from lead. But Ron has been there and so have I. Try measuring the stack length on a bunch of group arms and see what you get.

[havlicek]

Yep, Ron and Bill. I'm not saying you could do a Henry Ford and suddenly be tossing off thousands of arms no problem, just that I have an idea about one particularly troubling aspect of all this. I've worked with a bunch of loose .007" lams and understand what the material is like.

What I am saying is that, if this were my livelihood, I'm fairly confident I could have a workable system for this... not perfect... but workable. Of course (and as with most things), a lot depends on how much time, effort, and money you throw at a particular project.

-john

[Steve Boggs]

Seems to me the reloading folks have a pretty good solution, Bill. Something like the Dillon 550 progressive reloader (great machine) would seem about right. First station dumps lams from a vertical tube feed into "dummy tube" (whose ID is maybe a few thousandths over the OD of the lams) of the intended stack length. Second station presses the shaft and the third station ejects the .510 cal er... arm blank.

Besides everything being perfectly centered and true on the turret, the dummy tubes would need to be made up. I figure these would also sorta look like an empty cartridge case with a bottom plate and a center hole just larger than a shaft and have some sorta guides built in for keeping the lams straight as they fall. What do I win???

How about using a Lyman or RCBS electronic scale with the trickler modified to drop lams instead of powder? I'm sure one lamination weighs a lot more than the typical granules of powder it is set to throw. One lamination probably weighs 3 or 4 grains, and those scales are easily accurate to within .5 grain.

I don't have one of those, and I'm certain I can't modify my Harrell's to throw lams instead of powder! LOL.

You could set it to throw a certain number of lams by weight, and then stack and install them on an arm shaft, while the next set is being thrown by the measure.

[Phil Hackett]

Ron, you and I know who was stamping the blanks and who was assembling them. I gather that it was in the same operation. I know Bob talked about how fussy the die builder was for making the blanks... so it wasn't someone who thought they knew how to make the blanks. They knew and they took account of all variables. These weren't $1,000 dies either.

I was going by your statement that .007" lams were/are a production nightmare...

... takes twice as many .007" lams as it does .014" to meet minimum stack length dimension and is a production nightmare when stacking the lams before pressing the shaft. This is why you don't see .007" lam arms available in anything lower than Opens any more.

[Ron Hershman]

What I am saying is that, if this were my livelihood, I'm fairly confident I could have a workable system for this... not perfect... but workable. Of course (and as with most things), a lot depends on how much time, effort, and money you throw at a particular project.

Yeah, like I said not as easy as one thinks... these companies who make a "livelihood" threw lots of money to make things, buy machines, etc., to make production easier and faster.

$20K for winding machines
$5K for comm welders
$12K for comm slitting machine
$10K for balancing machine
Want a blank coating machine like Mura had??? $250K new
$5 to 10K for a stack grinder
$2K for a glorified "arbor press" to press the shafts into the lams... of course if there was an automated machine or easier or more accurate way of doing it... it would have been done by now and the money spent.

[Rick]

You forgot the stamping press, uncoiler, buckler, and progressive die for the blanks...

[Ron Hershman]

Ron, you and I know who was stamping the blanks and who was assembling them. I gather that it was in the same operation. I know Bob talked about how fussy the die builder was for making the blanks.... so it wasn't someone who thought they knew how to make the blanks. They knew and they took account of all variables. These weren't $1000 dies either.

Yep and the second guy who did the stamping and pressing for Mura... hated the pressing part of the job and he was a master machinist, a smart guy, and could never figure it out completely. He made press after press trying to improve pressing .007" lams.

Yep, the dies weren't cheap even with a perfect stamping die that is well maintained. Stacking .007" lams is a nightmare and a pain in the arse... take it from me... I did it... I lived it. Other than Bill, Mike S, Dan, and Dan here in this discussion... no one else has done this in a production setting let alone seen how it's done and all the variables involved.

On a good day with minimal hassles 300 .007" blanks in a eight-hour shift was a good day. Most days it was like 150 or so.

Put rod of .014" in the press and no problem making 400-500 blanks in a eight-hour shift. The .014" lams ran so easy my four-year-old son at the time could sit there and make blanks until the rod ran out of lams... re-load and he was a happy camper. LOL.

When I pressed shafts I could always tell when the die needed maintaining... either the stacking/pressing would hang up on the rods, in the "well", or in the slide. The other was when the shaft got real easy to push in... it was time for a new punch pin.

Mainly the die wear comes from the coating used on the lamination steel... not the cutting of the metal itself... there are five coatings available and one needs to know which is the best one for insulation properties, reducing die wear, and holding up through the arm-making process.

[Ron Hershman]

You forgot the stamping press, uncoiler, buckler, and progressive die for the blanks...

The stamping shop provided all that.

[Ron Hershman]

Well, except for the die and they would supply that for a "modest" fee. LOL.

[Rick]

We used to stamp out arm lams and got thousands a shift.

[Ron Hershman]

I was referring to "blanks" with pressed in shafts, Rick.

You should be able to stamp a lam in a press about every second... about 28,000 or so in an eight-hour shift if everything goes well.

[Rick]

I was referring to "blanks" with pressed-in shafts, Rick.

You should be able to stamp a lam in a press about every second... about 28,000 or so in an eight-hour shift if everything goes well.

Ahhhhh, gotcha. Stamping is much faster than that, with the short stroke for small parts like this.

.007" lams require very precise dies and clearances. As soon as they get a little dull, you will see the burr increase and off to the die shop for resharpening. We used kerosene drippers for lube for the stamping. Probably illegal today?

Your assembly problem had its nature of the beast deal, I am sure. Some things just have to be done by hand, like counting out blanks and aligning on the rods for pressing in the shafts, etc., etc., etc. If you have ever seen production shops for these kind of procedures, almost always women did the work. They can work all day on tedious stuff like this and just jaw away and make few erros. Put a man on the same job and you have to take him out back and shoot him after three hours. LMAO.

[havlicek]

Yeah, like I said not as easy as one thinks... these companies who make a "livelihood" threw lots of money to make things, buy machines, etc., to make production easier and faster.

Beats me what the "Yeah... not as easy as one thinks" is all about. Sounds like you believe I'm agreeing with you... when I'm not. It actually sounds fairly straightforward to me. Lots and lots of way more difficult problems get solved every day.

of course if there was a automated machine or easier or more accurate way of doing it... it would have been done by now and the money spent.

What a load of nonsense. You really believe that it's over for engineering, machine tools, and assembly techniques? I guess all the kids graduating with engineering degrees should just go home because a few slot car guys figure they've already thought of everything.

-john

[Mopar Rob]

I don't think it's a matter of technology to do it, probably more of the cost of the technology for a cottage industry manufacturer? Can't be that hard to index them by weight or count electronically, but...

[Ron Hershman]

Beats me what the "Yeah... not as easy as one thinks" is all about. Sounds like you believe I'm agreeing with you... when I'm not. It actually sounds fairly straightforward to me. Lots and lots of way more difficult problems get solved every day.

What a load of nonsense. You really believe that it's over for engineering, machine tools, and assembly techniques? I guess all the kids graduating with engineering degrees should just go home because a few slot car guys figure they've already thought of everything.

They got all those guys over at the shop that made most of the stuff for RJR and other manufacturers... they made all the fixures, etc., for the Globe motors in the '60s and they still have some of that old stuff for sale today in their shop.

Most of them are college-educated engineers and when it came to pressing shafts into lams... use a arbor press and good luck... there is no other way we have tried, tried, and tried... not saying it can't be done but others who are better and smarter still haven't figured it out. Money was not the object... what is being worked with is the problem that's difficult to overcome. Not everything can be engineered even in today's world to solve archaic problems in manufacturing.

Been there, done that.

[Ron Hershman]

I don't think it's a matter of technology to do it, probably more of the cost of the technology for a cottage industry manufacturer? Can't be that hard to index them by weight or count electronically, but..........

LOL... if a machine could have been made to do the job and it cost less that $50K... Robert Root would have bought it. No one could make it happen.

He spent nearly $90K to mold comms in-house and that was just for a molding machine and tooling.

[John Miller]

Other than Bill, Mike S, Dan, and Dan here in this discussion... no one else has done this in a production setting let alone senn how it's done and all the variables involved.

You can add one more to that list.

I punched, pressed, Hysol, ground, and wound them by the thousands in my day. It's not that complicated, if you know what you're doing.

[Ron Hershman]

.007" or .014", John??? Not that complicated??? I wonder why Dan stopped the practice of making low end production .007" arms?

Even at higher cost for material... if he were to bring .007" back, if they were hassle free to make, he would have a huge advantage and probably force one or two others to follow suit.

[John Miller]

.007" material.

No, not complicated at all. When I stopped working with Dan we were still doing every operation in-house.

I cannot opine as to why the .007" material is out of fashion.

I stumbled across a box of pressed blanks without Hysol the other day. These are 28 years old.

[wbugenis]

Put a calipers on the length of those stacks. That will tell the story. Put a calipers on a bunch of 12 arms. All just a few thousanths over 0.350" right?

[havlicek]

... nice picture, John! Can I be your best friend.

-john

[Ron Hershman]

I stumbled across a box of pressed blanks without hysol the other day. These are 28 years old.

Mine isn't quite as old .007" blanks in various lengths and several "rods" of pristine .007" Champion lams.

[Coal Train]

So were can someone get laminations made to there own design ?

[CafeBikeGirl]

Ummmm... Someone local with a good laser cutter or water jet? Have someone stamp out a few sets will probably cost some big money.

[Dan Miller]

Wire EDM is the way to prototype laminations. Laser and water jet just will not do.