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Testing new Can-Am bodies


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#1 JimF

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:12 AM

Before I start......everybody please do us all a favor and don't show up with any of these new bodies at tech. They are not approved at this time.

OK.....so here we go.

Goal for todays testing was to put some sort of rational and quantitative value on the new crop of higer downforce Can Am bodies. Its pretty easy to look at them and figure that they'll be fast. The question is whether they will make existing models obsolete. As a reminder, we haven't split hairs as much on the basis of year of competition or "scaliness" but rather, we have tried to keep the starting grids relatively diverse. Hence, we have resisted some bodies that have been in general use elsewhere.

A sampling of our current contenders. In general, these have been pretty even in performance and all models have won races within the last six months. These are all from my own race cars.

#60 - Classic Lola T-160, #75 - Kirby T-22, #50 - Parma Lola 163 w/ 1/4" spoiler, #1 - O/S Ferarri 612

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I have used the Kirby Ti-22 the most over the last two years or so. The 612 is a great body on one specific car which I have raced several times recently. The Lola T-160 gets used on sub 4" cars and the the 163 is getting play on a couple of pretty long cars that I've built lately.

Here are the new contenders along with the long standing JK TI-22 which we currently do not allow. All bodies were tested with an interior and with a spolier that totaled 1/2" including molded in portion of the body. This is an important stipulation b/c on most of these, the add on only sticks up about 3/16" above the body.

#3 JK TI-22 (short), #4 O/S Ti 22R, #2 O/S Lola 163, #1 Original JK TI-22

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A few general comments about these........The JK #1 has been around for years and I keep this one around to test against from time to time. It has always proven faster than the bodies we currently allow. The new O/S Lola is very long and is long enough to cover a 4 1/2" stock car frame. The nose deck and rear deck are not sculpted as deeply between the fenders as the classic T-160 The JK #3 is an enhanced Kirby and is billed as short and is in fact shorter than the rest of this batch. The enhancement vs. the classic Kirby is in the 'tunnel' area between the fenders and on either side of the cockpit. The tunnels have been sculpted out lower which in effect raises the side fences and puts a steeper arc on the leading edge of the rear fenders. This body was very thin and so I built it up with clear packing tape in order to equal it out in that way. The #4 O/S TI-22R is a longer and enhanced MAC TI-22. The side fences are taller and run nearly the full length of the body and the molded in rear spoiler is quite tall and doesn't take much add on to reach 1/2". The placement of the front wheel wells is perfect and a 1" guide lead clears the nose easily while the front wheels fall smack in the middle of the wheel well. This body fits a 4x1' car the best of any of these and possibly the best of any body I've seen. This body has a lot of vertical side on it and could be cut very tall. I cut it so that the rear deck was the same height as the JK #3 which was cut at the cut line.


Testing................My standard format is to run the test cars in their normal setups 20-30 laps to condition the lane and get a baseline time. I then run each test component about 10-12 laps. I'll run the 10-12 laps at "race pace" meaning 98% of fastest possible so usually no deslots in the test sequence. The first 2-4 are to get the feel, then I watch the clock for the next 5-6 laps for record noting the times. Then I'll run 2-3 laps seeking a "hair" lap. For a result, I keep the hair lap, then I drop the high and low of the remaining 5-6 and average the middle 3 times of the record laps. When those 3 are very close, that's a good result and what I'm looking for. When they vary a lot, the body isn't working that well no matter how fast the times might be. Today, conditions were not great and the test car was very much faster when the tires were freshly rubbed up. After 10-15 laps, the times started to drop off. Rubbing up the tires before each body test was probably the most consistent however the bodies showed their differences most dramatically when I left the tires alone as long as I could. The results below are subjective in the sense that I often repeated a body several times in order to get a feel for it with fresh tires and also as they started to get loose.

Test Cars............... Top: Standby 3 15/16 x 1" 110 gr. BB fronts, single rail .078 wire all scratch except Warmack bracket, JK 4713 PT. Center: new 4 1/16" x 1" 105 gr. single .078 rail, JK components, JK 4713 P. Bottom: new 4 1/2" stock car to provide reference as to how long some of these bodies are. Motors were not hand picked at all and in fact, the one in the top car had laid down at the last race. It started the day pretty good today but laid down again and basically invalidated the body tests on this car after the first 4-5 tests. That motor is gone. For reference, a very good race time on a fresh track is about 5.0-5.10.

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Car #1 Baseline avg time - 5.23 w/ O/S Ferrari 612 this car is tuned and set up for this body.
  • Classic Lola: Avg time = 5.29, hair lap = 5.21. This body was loose and inconsistant. Could not stabilize this car in these conditions.
  • Parma L-163: Avg time = 5.25 (3 identical laps) hair lap 5.21. Much more stable and driveable.
  • Classic Kirby: Avg time = 5.27 Hair lap = 5.24. Very consistent.
  • Original JK TI-22: Avg time 5.21 hair lap = 5.21 six laps in a row of the same lap time. Super stable but motor weakening by now.
After this, the motor was laying down and times started climbing. For this car, the Lola T-160 was the only one that I would not have chosen to race. The short body was not as stable on this slick track. The JK felt rock solid with the dying motor and if it had been tested first would have been solidly in the lead.

Car #2 Baseline avg time 5.19 w/ Parma Lola 163 (this is a new car so no tuning has been done yet)
  • Classic Lola: Avg time = 5.22, hair lap 5.16. This combo was good but the body was a little unstable in the high speed sweeper.
  • Classic Kirby: Avg time = 5.19 hair lap 5.16. More stable in infield and sweeper than T-160.
  • JK enhanced Kirby: Avg time - 5.17, hair lap 5.10. With short spoiler, not much diff than classic Kirby. Tires loosening up.
  • O/S enhanced MAC: (freshened up tires) Avg time 5.09 hair lap = 5.04. Stable and faster in sweeper. very balanced.
  • Original JK: Avg time 5.09, hair lap 5.06. Tiny bit looser than TIR but very close, very easy to drive.......stable.
  • O/S enhanced MAC: (retest 30 laps on tires) Avg time 5.12 hair lap 5.10 looser but still very good.
  • O/S Lola 163: (freshened tires) avg time 5.02, hair lap 4.98 slowest time 5.09. Yow!!!.....super stable, solid, able to go very hard.
  • O/S Lola 163; (retest 30 laps on tires) Avg time = 5.12, hair lap 5.09 very driveable even with loose tires.
  • Classic Lola: (retest freshened up tires) Avg lap = 5.17, hair lap 5.14. could hang in for about 6-8 laps but dropped off fast.
For our existing bodies, the ones tested all worked similarly but just didn't plant the car in the sweeper. One of these two cars is slightly better with the Ferarri while the other is better with the Classic Kirby and the Parma Lola 163. The Lola T-160 is great in more stuck conditions (like SCR for example and Modesto sometimes) and also seems best on shorter cars. On these long cars and on a loose track, it's just not in the running.

The new enhanced bodies (and the old JK as well) are FTMP clearly faster and more stable on the Purple Angel and in these loose conditions. In this case the advantage in driveability went to the smooth feel of the long bodies with the O/S Lola 163 being the big surprise. This body didn't look like it would work (kinda shapeless and really long) yet.....it was really good. The JK Kirby looked like it would work great but didn't impress that much. The O/S TIR may prove to run a little faster than the O/S Lola especially on a different surface. It also fits the avg race car the best. The TIR did seem to be slower down the main straight but was very quick in the sweeper coming toward the driver's panel. OTH, the long Lola and the orig JK could maybe go a little deeper in the deadman and both were very forgiving as well as being fast.


So................................These new bodies are all obviously and visibly enhanced. The TIR actually looks pretty much like the real car (depending on the pic you look at) but the Lola looks pretty shapeless and ridiculously long but it's surprisingly fast. The old JK is a really a morph job but works exceptionally well. The new JK Kirby looks at first glance like the classic Kirby but the changes are notable. I really expected this body to be better....but it just wasn't. I don't see any clear winner out of this batch but this was a very simple cut 'em and run 'em test. On this day, I would have chosen the O/S Lola 163 on my longer car and the TIR on my shorter one. With tuning and more testing on other tracks and cars, a clear overall favorite would possibly emerge.

If we allow any of these new bodies, they will make our current crop of bodies 90% obsolete. Personally, I don't think we need them. The crop of bodies that we currently have gives us plenty of options, relative parity, and the ability to "body tune" for conditions. However, I won't dictate one way or another. If we do decide to allow these bodies in........it will be a group decision. I will have these samples with me at the next couple of races and dialog is invited and encouraged online and at the race meetings. I will test some of the New F-1s in a similar fashion next week.

Edited by JimF, 03 May 2012 - 12:57 PM.
Thursday 11 AM....cleaned up some typos and added a thought or two.

Jim Fowler




#2 TSR

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:21 PM

Jim,
Thanks for a great job. In SCRRA we have limited the length and widths of bodies, so that enhanced bodies will have a harder time to slip by.

If we allow any of these new bodies, they will make our current crop of bodies 90% obsolete. Personally, I don't think we need them.


My opinion only, but I am with you on this and hope to convince the other board members to keep to the basic philosophy I pushed since Day One of retro racing in SoCal:

To be approved, bodies must be originals or exact reproductions of pre-1970 Can-Am or Sports/GT bodies by Russkit, MAC, Lancer, Associated, Dynamic etc. or from new molds made in the spirit of the period bodies.


The search for speed in newly created "retro" bodies is about as productive as banking the King tracks even more in search of the under 1-second lap.

Philippe de Lespinay


#3 Noose

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:06 PM

Interesting test. When you refer though to your current bodies, how available are they these days? Also, did you say the #75 TI22 is a Kirby by JK? I know this one and the new JK one are not on our approved list.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#4 JimF

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

Interesting test. When you refer though to your current bodies, how available are they these days? Also, did you say the #75 TI22 is a Kirby by JK? I know this one and the new JK one are not on our approved list.


Nope....didn't say that at all. Actually, the #75 is a True Scale but the various other versions from O/S, Red Fox, and possibly even the R-Geo are so similar that I lump them into one heap as "classic" Kirby TI-22's.

I know that you haven't approved the JK 70811. I refer to it as an enhanced Kirby in order to clarify the lineage.

As far as availability...............................

Classic T-160: Available from O/S, True scale (yeah, yeah....I know), ED, Red Fox and most recently Parma. Also keep in mind that this is just a reresentative of the classic bodies to include the various and sundry Ferarri 612 and Ti-22 clones of the MAC originals.

Kirby TI-22: Currently, O/S # 415-L, Red Fox, ED (I think), and True Scale.

Parma T-163: Obviously a one-off but Parma stuff seems available anytime anywhere.

Ferrari 612: This O/S version #414 is still (????) in production and has been supplemented by the #740 712. The Bloom Waters version of this is accepted and available from O/S and maybe T/S (?)
Jim Fowler

#5 Noose

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:54 PM

What is the one you show in the pic though? The number 75 one?

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#6 JimF

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:17 PM

What is the one you show in the pic though? The number 75 one?


That one happens to be either a True Scale or one of the "crisper" pulls of the O/S 415-L. Not sure which version it is.......but, absolutely not the 'new' JK #70811 or the R-Geo which has thicker fences but may not be in current (???) production...
Jim Fowler

#7 Ron Hershman

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

Ferrari 612: This O/S version #414 is still (????) in production and has been supplemented by the #740 712. The Bloom Waters version of this is accepted and available from O/S and maybe T/S (?)


Yup..... all of the above still available :)

#8 Ron Hershman

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

R-Geo which has thicker fences but may not be in current (???) production...


I didn't know that R-Geo made a TI-22 body................

#9 Cap Henry

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:24 PM

Rick must be holding out on us... LOL

#10 Ralph Thorne

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:38 PM

Maybe he's thinking of the G Force version?

#11 JimF

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:40 PM

I didn't know that R-Geo made a TI-22 body................


Yep.....he did/does. It is G-Force/R-geo.........whatever...........GFR-100. Basically just another Kirby but the side fences are thicker than on the O/S or T/S. No performance advantage but it's a little easier to get paint up into those fences when using rattlecanz. The pulls were pretty "blobby" in the detail areas (in some cases) OTH they were also pretty good on some examples.
Jim Fowler

#12 Noose

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:43 PM

I don' t know who is pulling the G-Force bodies at all now. It was a body brought out by Mark Greene when he had Keystone Raceway and I think Steve Smith might have the mold. It's still shown on the Eagle site though the last time I looked.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#13 Noose

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:48 PM

That one happens to be either a True Scale or one of the "crisper" pulls of the O/S 415-L. Not sure which version it is.......but, absolutely not the 'new' JK #70811 or the R-Geo which has thicker fences but may not be in current (???) production...


Not the G-Force or any True Scale one I have ever seen. I don't know of any TI22 that has that notch in the front like that. Maybe someone else here can chime it. Did Toy Tech pull that one?
OR..since it appears the rear grill was cut out perhaps that front area was cut out on this body. Then it could be a True Scale or ED version of the Long Kirby because the "grill" opening is further back on those than other TIs out there.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#14 Ron Hershman

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:50 PM

The G-Force TI-22 was a back pour of the ORIGINAL 1969 Kirby TI-22 that had the "short" nose. OS has a version of this as well. Mike Steube "loves" this body :)

The Kirby TI-22 that is popular today is the "long" nose version that was "lengthened and enhanced" back in the day and in 1970. ;)

#15 JimF

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:52 PM

I knew that MG had faded from the retro scene but don't know any particulars. In the cae of this body, there are still some out there. IMHO....it doesn't matter much since they offer no performance advantage or existing stuff. If there was a weakness other than the "blobby" pulls, it was that the front fender wells seemed prone to cracking through the center of the wheel arch.
Jim Fowler

#16 Ron Hershman

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:53 PM

If there was a weakness other than the "blobby" pulls, it was that the front fender wells seemed prone to cracking through the center of the wheel arch.


Probably pulled from PETG

#17 Gator Bob

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:58 PM

Great detailed test report, Thanks Jim.
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                            Bob Israelite

#18 JimF

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:17 PM

Not the G-Force or any True Scale one I have ever seen. I don't know of any TI22 that has that notch in the front like that. Maybe someone else here can chime it. Did Toy Tech pull that one?
OR..since it appears the rear grill was cut out perhaps that front area was cut out on this body. Then it could be a True Scale or ED version of the Long Kirby because the "grill" opening is further back on those than other TIs out there.


If by "the notch" you refer to the central nose scoop. then yes this is in fact a T/S or O/S #415-L with the nose scoop left clear. After mounting, the nose was trimmed back until it cleared. You are loosing me on the rear grill. I'm not smart enuf to know what you are referring to. IAC.....the camera is charging but I just pulled a new T/S TI-22 long out of the box and will try to take a side by each pic of the two. Its possible that the Red Fox clone may be slightly shorter in nose profile than the T/S but I think that realistically they are all similar enough to not split the RCH any further. Realllynow......these are basically all the same from the perspective of what really matters.
Jim Fowler

#19 Noose

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:19 PM

LOL.camera tricks. The front must be clear then. And yes, Red Fox also did a back pull of it too.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#20 JimF

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:29 PM

LOL.camera tricks. The front must be clear then. And yes, Red Fox also did a back pull of it too.


Yessss.................very trickseeeeey these Hobittses with their camerasssssssses. And indeed yessssss.......the Brazillian Master has chosen to duplicate some of these icons for hissssss massssster plan. Very devious indeed these outliers with their camerasssssesssss.
Jim Fowler

#21 TSR

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:43 PM

Then it could be a True Scale or ED version of the Long Kirby because the "grill" opening is further back on those than other TIs out there.

The Electric Dreams version is made from the original mold donated to me by Lloyd Asbury, which I turned over to Electric Dreams. So it is as original as can be. I have not personally compared it to the TrueScale or other copies of the Associated-Kirby body. I do have some, so I will check them out to see if there is a difference.
The "Kirby" is the Lancer model, with a lengthened nose as requested by Jim Kirby and later marketed by Associated after Lancer tanked. This body was used in butyrate form on quite a few RTR models by Phaze III, Riggen, Champion...

Philippe de Lespinay






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